If you have not read the first part of this discussion click The Posttribulation Rapture
QUESTIONS FOR THE PREWRATH RAPTURE POSITION FROM A POSTTRIBULATION RAPTURE POSITION
1. Although the prewrath position answers many questions that the pretrib view does not, it still suffers the burden of explaining a few dubious duplications that the posttrib rapture unifies as one event. I believe the chart below correctly portrays the prewrath position as compared to the posttrib position. The first verse reference in the chart below applies to the prewrath presence of the Lord and the second reference applies to His appearance later in the DOTL according to prewrathers, while both references apply to His coming at the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and 7th bowl according to posttrib.
| Event | Prewrath | Posttrib | Bible Reference |
| Resurrection of believers | Two, with the second one called the "first resurrection" | one | #1Cor 15.52 |
| Last Trumpet | two | one | #1Cor 15.52 |
| Saints are Rewarded | twice | once | #Rev 22.12 |
| Christ's advent is illustrated as being like the coming of a thief. | twice | once | #1Thes 5.2 |
2. Regarding the second half of Daniel's 70th week:
a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is "rendered useless" at the beginning of the DOTL. If so, the antichrist could complain to God that He was untrue to His word, since He had given him 42 months to act,
b. The two witnesses will prophesy for "1260 days",
Is this just an idle promise, (made in aproximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short)?
c. Hasn't the outer court been given to the nations to tread under foot for 42 months? Is this 42 month period cut short?
d. It is not reasonable that two individuals, diametrically
opposed to each other, both exercise authority at the same time.
The antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during
the day of the Lord.
The last part of Daniel's 70th week (which prewrathers see as the
day of the Lord) appears to be a continuation of the day
of the antichrist which started in the middle of the 70th week
since he is exercising his God given authority to overcome
saints, etc,. If it is the day of
the Lord, God would be exercising
If prewrath claimed that the above 3 1/2 years occured during the first half of Daniel's 70th week, they would avoid these problems. But claiming that these periods of time occur in the second half of Daniel's 70th week causes the prewrath position a problem explaining the fact that God promises the antichrist authority for 42 months and then decides that, "for the sake of the elect those days must be shortened" and reduce the number of days granted for certain things to occur. Prewrath teaches that God severely restricts or "renders useless" (THE SIGN page 337) the antichrist thus revoking the authority He had just granted.
Another explanation is needed for "cut short".
Checking the Greek:
2856 koloboo {kol-ob-o'-o}
from a derivative of the base of 2849; TDNT - 3:823,452; v
AV - shorten 4; 4
1) to mutilate
2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
The first definition is to mutilate (ie to cut off). So if those days had been allowed to go on indefinitely no flesh would survive but they will be cut off, not permitted to go on indefinitely. But they will go on as long as God had said they would.
3. Why at the the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, "I am coming like a thief"?
According to the prewrath view He already had come like a thief to start the day of the Lord at the rapture to rescue all believers from His wrath? (Please don't say Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture. I do believe the rapture is at the 7th seal but that the 7th seal is after the 6th bowl.) For evidence that 7 is the Biblical number of completion see Gen 1. For evidence that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all are simultaneous note the flashes of lightening, and sounds and peals of thunder, and the great earthquake that follows each of the seven seals, trumpets and bowls.
7th seal
7th trumpet;
7th bowl
These repeated series of events remind me of the sun being darkened, the moon being darkened or turned to blood, the stars falling from the sky, and the powers of heaven being shaken in the 6th seal after the tribulation. The repetition of both of these series of events indicates that the same point in time has been reached.
4. If NO ONE is saved after the prewrath rapture, why does the 6th bowl imply that there are those on earth who are blessed, staying awake and keeping their garments?
And why do some of the bowls specifically target the wicked,
and those who had the mark of the beast,
and those who poured out the blood of saints, thus implying that those who do not have the mark of the beast or those who did not pour out the blood of saints will not be affected?
On the other hand, If SOME ARE saved after the prewrath rapture, will they suffer the wrath of God or be protected from it? If they suffer it, prewrath must explain why
doesn't apply to them? If they don't suffer it but are protected by God on earth as He protected Noah and Lot, then the need for a prewrath rapture has vanished because God is protecting His own on earth through the time of the outpouring of His wrath anyway. He might as well protect the entire church. Those saved after a prewrath rapture of believers still have the same promises of deliverance from the wrath of God that the church does. Or does the prewrath position believe as pretribs, that those saved after the rapture are not part of the church but part of Israel, or some hybred group?
5. The 5th seal
tells us that God will REFRAIN from JUDGING and avenging the blood of saints until the LAST maryter is killed. This may be the killing of the two witnesses at the end of the antichrist's authority to kill saints, but could be any other martyer. In either case, this verse implies that God's judging, the essence of the day of the Lord,
will be WITHHELD until the end of both: 1. the authority of the antichrist to act and kill saints, and 2. the time the two witnesses have to witness is over. Thus God's judgment will not come until after the 70th week of Daniel is over, and the antichrist's authority is over, and the time given to the two witnesses to witness has been used up.
6. From
we learn that OT saints could not be made perfect without us. The posttrib rapture position indicates that both OT saints and we are made perfect at the same time-at the posttrib rapture. The prewrath position has OT saints WAITING to be resurrected until the first day of the Millennium (THE SIGN, pg 297). If they could not be made perfect without us, how can we be made perfect without them? It seems consistent with the revealed character of God, that we should not be made perfect without them if they cannot be made perfect without us.
7. #Rom 8.18-23
describes creation anxiously longing for the revealing of the sons of God (the rapture). Why? Because (v 21) creation will be set free from its salvery to corruption when the sons of God are revealed. But according to prewrath, after the revealing of the sons of God, creation is not releaved, but instead, hail, fire and blood are thrown to earth, a third of the earth is burnt up, a third of the trees are burnt and all the green grass is burnt up, all in the 1st trumpet, it does not get any better for creation as we get into the 2nd trumpet or the rest of the bowls. I think you get the point. Creation would not be eagerly awaiting the revelation of the sons of God if, just after that revelation, creation is subject to the seven trumpets and seven bowls. It would eagerly await the return of Christ. But according to posttrib, it would eagerly wait for the revelation of the sons of God because that is when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. Prewrath (as well as pretribs) would have to explain why creation is said to be relieved at a time when creation will experience the worst plagues ever. Posttrib offers a better explaination; that at the revelation of the sons of God, the earth will also be releaved from the plagues of Revelation and God will "destroy those who destroy the earth."
The prewrath position does make significant improvements over the pretribulation rapture position, and in fact it is a version of the posttribulation rapture position, but I feel it still falls short of a satisfactory explaination of the revelation we have.
If you need to contact me for clarification of any points in this paper or any other reason please feel free to email me at dandudley@juno.com.
I am also looking for additional questions for prewrath to add to this page. If you have an appropriate question, send it to my e-mail.
If you have not read the first part of this discussion, click The Posttribulation RaptureP.S. I have now had two interesting discussions of most of the above "Questions for prewrathers" with prewrath adherents. The first of these discussions can be seen by clicking on Fragrances or by reading the discussion started below. The second discussion is found at Second Prewrath discussion.
What follows is a discussion with Ron, an advocate of the prewrath rapture position about some of the questions I raised above. This site is still under construction.
•Answers from the prewrath view - Ron 7/07/97 (19)
•Re: Answers from the prewrath view - Dan Dudley 7/12/97 (18)
•martyrs/chronology - Ron 7/15/97 (1)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - DD 7/20/97 (0)
•martyrs/chronology - Ron 7/15/97 (3)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - DD 7/21/97 (2)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - Ron 7/22/97 (1)
•Re: martyrs/chronology - DD 8/03/97 (0)
•prewrath answers - more - Ron 7/15/97 (3)
•Re: prewrath answers - more - DD 7/21/97 (2)
•wrath - Ron 7/23/97 (1)
•Re: wrath - DD 8/03/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #4 - Ron 7/15/97 (1)
•Re: Rev. 14 - reapings #4 - DD 7/21/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #3 - Ron 7/15/97 (1)
•Re: Rev. 14 - reapings #3 - DD 7/21/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #2 - Ron 7/15/97 (0)
•Rev. 14 - reapings #1 - Ron 7/15/97 (0)
•Re: Answers from the prewrath#1 - Ron 7/14/97 (1)
•Re: Answers from the prewrath#1 - DD 7/21/97 (0)
Innitial response to Questions for prewrath. from Ron W.(Page down to see my response to this
In Reply to: Questions for the prewrath view from the (Gundry type) posttrib view. posted by Dan Dudley on July 01, 1997 at 21:02:17:
D:2. Regarding the second half of Daniel's 70th week:
rgw:In all of these questions, it appears that you are assuming the tribulation to be 1260 days long. It is never so described. The 70th week is 7 years long. The trib “begins” at the midpoint - but does not HAVE to go for 1260 days.
D:a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is "rendered useless" at the beginning of the DOTL. If so, the antichrist could complain to God that He was untrue to His word, since He had given him 42 months to act,
rgw:No. His reign is for the full 42 months but the “degree” (great tribulation) of his oppression is greatly hindered because of the trumpet and bowl judgments. Point being that he will have his hands full just trying to keep his kingdom together, let alone succeeding in spreading beast worship world-wide. No foul here. He still has 42 months to act. What do you want him to have, carte blanche? Hey - the gospel will be proclaimed during that time - why not cry foul? Hey God, keep that gospel stuff outta here - you said I have 42 months!
D:b. The two witnesses will prophesy for "1260 days", Is this just an idle promise, (made in aproximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short)?
rgw:They still witness for 1260 days. There ministry ends just before the 7th trumpet sounds. That has nothing to do with when the rapture takes place. They do not “have” to go up at the rapture - they have a special job to do. And when they ascend - that is not the rapture.
D:c. Hasn't the outer court been given to the nations to tread under foot for 42 months? Is this 42 month period cut short?
rgw:Nope. Still tread upon for 42 months. that does not change until Armageddon.
D:d. It is not reasonable that the antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during the Day of the Lord?
rgw:He does. What do you think “freely” means? God never said He was going to turn His back.
DD:The last part of Daniel's 70th week (which prewrathers see as the Day of the Lord) seems to still be the day of the antichrist, since he is still exercising his God given authority
Response to Ron
Original comments are labeled D1
Rons response to this are labeled rgw1
My second response to Ron is labeled D2
D2Thank you for your thoughtful response to my questions for prewrath. I do appreciate the spirit in which you answered these questions, and I trust that, while I may dispute your conclusions, you realize I am just trying to help you recognize your assumptions and point out weaknesses in your arguments. I do respect your (and other prewrathers) concern for the details of prophecy and sincere desire to discover the truth.
rgw1:In all of these questions, it appears that you are assuming the tribulation to be 1260 days long. It is never so described. The 70th week is 7 years long. The trib “begins” at the midpoint - but does not HAVE to go for 1260 days.
D2: I agree it does not HAVE to go on for 1260 days, but if it is the great tribulation for Christians, then, since the antichrist will have authority to kill Christians for 42 months, and presumably he will do just that, it will be tribulation for believers for 42 months.
D1:a. Are the number of days the antichrist is given authority to act cut short? Van Kampen in THE SIGN page 337 says the antichrist is "rendered useless" at the beginning of the DOTL. If so, the antichrist could complain to God that He was untrue to His word, since He had given him 42 months to act,
rgw1:No. His reign is for the full 42 months but the “degree” (great tribulation) of his oppression is greatly hindered because of the trumpet and bowl judgments. Point being that he will have his hands full just trying to keep his kingdom together, let alone succeeding in spreading beast worship world-wide. No foul here. He still has 42 months to act. What do you want him to have, carte blanche? Hey -the gospel will be proclaimed during that time - why not cry foul? Hey God, keep that gospel stuff outta here - you said I have 42 months!
D2: I don't say he has authority to keep the gospel out because the Bible says the two witnesses will be active during the same period. But I see a contradiction between "rendered useless" and having authority to act for 42 months. Maybe you would like Van Kampen to change his terminology or claim a poor choice of words, I'll forgive you or Van Kampen and I don't think it would hurt your case too much, but to maintain he is rendered useless part way through the 42 months in not compatible with Rev 13:5-7.
D1: b. The two witnesses will prophesy for "1260 days", Is this just an idle promise, (made in approximately 95 A. D., ruffly 65 years after the statement from Jesus that the days will be cut short)?
rgw1:They still witness for 1260 days. There ministry ends just before the 7th trumpet sounds. That nothing to do with when the rapture takes place. They do not “have” to go up at the rapture - they have a special job to do. And when they ascend- that is not the rapture.
D2Just recognize this an unusual pre-wrath assumption since 1 Cor 15:21 says, "we shall ALL be changed..." and 1 Thes 4:17 says, "we who are alive and remain SHALL be caught up...:
D1:d. It is not reasonable that the antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during the Day of the Lord?
rgw1:He does. What do you think “freely” means? God never said He was going to turn His back.
D2: I think freely does not mean "rendered useless". I hope you can see the inconsistency in this.
D1:Another explanation is needed for "cut short".
The first definition is to mutilate (i.e. to cut off). So if those days had been allowed to go on indefinitely no flesh would survive but they will be cut off, not permitted to go on indefinitely. But they will go on as long as God had said they would.
rgw1: Yes - a valid possibility. BUT - it is not JUST the idea of “cut short” that determines a prewrath rapture. It is also the recognition of a clear chronological progression. There is allot of disagreement as to the chronology of the seals, trumpets and bowls - But I am certain that they must be viewed chronologically. And that is what solves all the problems. A detailed analysis of the chronological language requires the Day of the Lord occur at the 6th seal - and the 7th seal, trumpets and bowls FOLLOW in order from that Day of the Lord.
D2 I wish it did solve all the problems. What about the two reapings in Rev 14:14-20. This occurs after the Lamb is standing on Mount Zion (on earth) with the 144,000 (Rev 14:1-5) and definitely after the discussion of the 7 trumpets, Rev 11:18, and after the 6th seal in chapter 6. The two reapings fit well with the posttrib view with the first one being the rapture and the second one being Christ coming in judgment to the earth. But post tribs must admit as prewrathers must, that Revelation is not chronological. Or do you have a better explanation for the two reapings?
D1:question number 3. Why at the 6th bowl of wrath does God say, "I am coming like a thief"? Rev 16.15 (Please don't say Rev. 16:15 is a parenthesis in the middle of the events of the 6th bowl that jumps back to the church before the 7th seal rapture.
rgw1:Why not. It works for me. BUT - not so much as “jumps back to the church” as it is an exhortation addressed to those who are reading the book - in view of the seriousness of the events that will be taking place.
D2 This is another prewrath assumption that is not required under posttrib. It does not fit the prewrath chronology so it is a parenthesis. That explaination seems forced, since the warning that He is coming like a thief is in the middle of the description of the 6th bowl, preceded by the preparations for the kings of the east etc. and followed by these kings gathering together at HarMagedon. If an aside to the reader is intended it would seem the writer would finish the description of the events of the 6th bowl, and then have the aside.
D1:For evidence that 7 is the Biblical number of completion see Gen 1.
rgw1:This is no issue.
D2: The idea is that 7 brings us to the end, then we return and get more details and the series of 7 brings us to the end again.
D1: For evidence that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all are simultaneous note the flashes of lightening, and sounds and peals of thunder, and the great earthquake that follows each of the seven seal, trumpets and bowls.
rgw1: These thunders, etc., do not require that the 3 items be equated. It simply indicates that something very heavy is about to happen in connection with those items. The chronological language is much stronger than an appeal to the same kind of announcement “sounds” for each event.
D2: So prewrath teaches that three times peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake all occur together. Doesn't this remind you of pretribs having the sun darkened, the moon turned to blood, stars falling from the sky and the powers of the heavens shaken three times? It may be so but posttrib avoids having to make this less likely assumption.
D1:Question #4. Will anyone be saved after the prewrath rapture? If not, why does the 6th bowl imply that there are those on earth who are blessed, staying awake and keeping their garments?
rgw1:Of course. Many will be saved after the pre-wrath rapture. It starts with 144,000 Jewish converts at Rev. 7:1-7.
D1:If some people are saved after the prewrath rapture, will they suffer the wrath of God or be protected from it? If they suffer it, prewrath must explain why.
rgw1:It explains very clearly that the 144,000 are protected from the things about to happen to the earth.
D1:John 3.36 doesn't apply to them?
rgw1: Wrong kind of wrath in view. That is eternal wrath. The Day of the Lord administers temporal wrath.
D2 You are saying that those who are saved after the prewrath rapture ARE subject to God's temporal wrath? (I do not accept the premise that there are two kinds of the wrath of God. It reminds me of pretribs who have two kinds of everything every eschatological event that they can't explain.) I do not believe any believer in any age is subject to God's wrath (whether temporal or eternal).
D1:Those saved after a prewrath rapture of believers still have the same promises of deliverance from the wrath of God that the church does. Or does the prewrath position believe as pretribs, that those saved after the rapture are not part of the church but part of Israel, or some hybrid group?
rgw1:The primary reason for a prewrath rapture is not so much a deliverance from wrath, although that certainly happens.
D2: Since wrath is the key word in the name of this position, I would think it is a key reason for a prewrath rapture.
rgw1:But I do not make that kind of emphasis. The primary reason is to return to Israel as the one to represent God’s truths just prior to and during the kingdom of Messiah. Yes, there needs to be a clear dispensation understanding here - and if you have difficulties with dispensations, then perhaps that should be discussed separately from this issue. I have a couple items about dispensations on my site and will glad to answer any questions in addition.
D2 I don't have problems with dispensations.
D1: question #5. The 5th seal Rev 6.10-11 tells us that God will REFRAIN from JUDGING and avenging the blood of saints until the LAST Martyr is killed.
rgw1:Nice paraphrase. It says “until their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.” It does not say anything about a “last martyr.” By the way, I do not agree with VanKampen’s view on this. You do realize that there will be many different perspectives in the various positions, right??
D2:Right.
rgw1: The fellow servants are the martyrs during the trib. Thus in God’s timing, when He ends the trib. by Christ’s arrival in the clouds, the number is completed and judgment can be poured out on the earth. The ones under the altar, I believe are not martyrs of the trib, but martyrs of church history prior to the trib. - They are viewed here in John’s vision simply as a teaching aid to communicate the idea of two groups of martyrs.
D2: The "fellow servants and brethren" are fellow martyrs. Where do you see two groups of martyrs? Again you have had to resort to assuming or inventing two groups of something (in this case martyrs, previously two kinds of wrath) to resolve a problem. If that problem can be solved with one group of martyrs (as posttrib does) that is a superior solution, all other arguments being equal. The more assumptions needed to make the data fit into a theory, the more suspect that theory is.
D1:Thus God's judgment will not come until after the 70th week of Daniel is over, and the antichrist's authority is over, and the time given to the two witnesses to witness has been used up.
rgw1:The chronological language does not allow for this.
D2 This appears to be the underlying assumption which forces you to make the other assumptions I have identified. So I will deal with it in more detail. Prophecy is not necessarily given in a chronological order. The book of Daniel (which is generally recognized as the key to understanding Revelations) is not chronological. In chapter 2:40 it touches on the 4 kingdom of the antichrist followed by Christ. Then in chapter 7 returns to this subject and gives more details about the four kingdoms and the antichrist followed by Christ in 7:9. Then in 8 we have even more details about previously described kingdoms. In Dan 9:27 we again return to more details about the antichrist and Christ. In Dan.11 many more details are added about the antichrist (see Dan 11:21-45). A similar pattern is seen in Ezekiel and other prophets. (This is like the pattern we see in Hebrews describing Christ.) So we learn that prophecy need not be written in a continuous chronological order throughout a book but may provide an overview, then revisit the subject with more details, and revisit it again with more details. I believe this is how we should interpret the book of Revelation. (See my home page at http://www.oocities.org/Athens/6476 for a time line and more details about the way this works out in interpreting Revelation.)
To continue this discussion click Discussion continued notes 2