Response to questions for prewrathers, by Dave Walker. Dave's comments are indicated with the innitials dw and my response to his comments are indicated with dd.

On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:32:14 -0700 Dave Walker dw. I am neither a scholar nor a priest, but I have been searching the scriptures for the last 15 years in relation to the timing of the Rapture. The book," the Prewrath Rapture of the Church:, has helped me alot. I didn't agree with the pretrib position nor did I agree with the posttrib position.

dd. Did you read either of Gundry's book mentioned in my home page?

dw. When I findly saw that the tribulation period and the day of the Lord were two different time periods, a lot of my questions were answered.

dd.Post trib also says the DOTL and the Trib are two different periods.

dw. I still don't agree with all aspects of the Prewrath position as you will discover: but here is my answers to your questions:

1 Event- Resurrection of believers, I agree that there will be one resurrection of believers.

dd. Great, so do I. All prewrath views I have read say their will be two. One just after the 6th seal and one at the posttrib second coming at the time Satan is bound (Rev 20) But other prewrathers take special pains to say that Rev is basically chronological. But Rev 20 is way out of sequence if you say Rev is chronological.

dw. The martyrs will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation period, at the sixth seal, before the wrath of God starts being poured out at the seventh seal. Rev. 20:4, John saw the martyrs, who, during the tribulation period, did not accept the mark of the beast. The "day of grace" ends at the rapture! The "Day of the Lord", is that period of time that God metes out judgement to the ungodly! No one will be saved after the rapture! Rev. 13:8 states, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship the beast, WHOSE NAMES are not written in the lamb's book of life,etc. If your name is not written in the book at the rapture, ITS OVER!! This could even mean that if your name is not there when he comes to power, its over..

dw. event- last trumpet... Is Paul referring to the last trumpet to be sounded during the "day of grace" ,, before the "day of the Lord",, or is he referring to the last trumpet judgement, that occurs during the wrath of God, the which we are supposed to be delivered from???????? I guess your opinion is as good as mine.....

dd. For the term "last" to have meaning, their must be earlier trumpets. I see none during the day of Grace. But I do see a series of trumpets in the book of Rev and at the 7th, the mystery of God is finished and the time came to reward the (righteous) dead. He brings His reward with Him at His return Rev 22:12 so He must keep it until the 7th trumpet sounds. The prewrath view requires the term last (1 Cor 15) to have no known meaning whereas the post trib view gives significance to the term last.

dw. event--Saints are rewarded.. The saints are going to be rewarded at the seventh trumpet, Rev.11:18. This will be the Berma, or the Judgement seat of Christ. Rev.22:12, Jesus has just told John to seal not the book, verse 10, then in verse 12, he gives a warning: And behold, I come quickly(at the rapture) and my reward is with me,etc. Jesus is plainly talking in the present tense here!

dd. So there is a time delay of at least 5 months (5th trumpet) from the rapture to our receiving our rewards. This seems strange since He brings the rewards with Him when we meet Him in the air.

dw. event-- Christ's advent is illustrated as being like a coming of a thief- Rev:16:15, Jesus is saying here that the one who watches, will be blessed. How blessed?? By being raptured which is to be delievered from the wrath to come, 1 Thes 1:10. You will be blessed by not being one earth at the time of destruction.

dd. Yes but this is stated at the 6th bowl! Not at the 6th seal. So thtere must be saved people on earth to be blessed at the 6th bowl. That this is a statement backward in time to the church before the 6th seal has been admitted by other prewrathers to be "forced" but a requirement of their system. (See discussion on my page with Ron or on the Fragrances forum page (address in the prewrath section of my page).

dw. 2, a b c.. The way that the antichrist will be "rendered useless", at the beginning of the day of the lord (DOTL) is that there won't be any of God's people on earth to have power over! The rapture has just appened at the sixth seal. He will still have power and authority over the world, because he is given power to continue forty two months.. Rev:13:5.

dd. This (that no one is saved after the prewrath rapture) is totally unique among prewrathers I have talked to. Admittedly it does solve many of the problems of the prewrath view, but is it scriptural. The Bible says blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on in Rev 14:13, way after the 6th seal in Rev 6, and if Rev is Chronological as prewrathers generally will state, how can people die in the Lord so far after the rapture in none are saved? (Not to mention Rev 16:15).

dw. b...The two witnesses will prophesy for "1260 days" .. True! They will prophesy for the entire last three and one half years. But not a "soul" will be saved after the DOTL starts. Rev. 9:20,21, Rev. 16:9,11, They repented not!! Matt 24:22. The days will be shortened for the elects sake! You can bet your boots that this was no idle promise. If Jesus makes a promise, it will be kept! We go back to where he gave antichrist power to continue for forty two months. He will continue, but he won't be continuing on the children of God, because they won't be here !!!

dd. Again, this does answer the question, but will anyone agree with you that for over 5 months not one soul will be saved? This raises a standard pretrib question. Who will enter the millennium if no unbeliever does and no saved people are around because they just got raptured. (Maybe you want to borrow my response to this question in my Posttribulation Rapture page).

dw. c... The outer court will still be troddened under foot for 42 months..

dd. OK.

dw. d... True!! It is reasonable that the antichrist would be exercising his authority freely during the DOTL. But like I said before, there won't be any saints on earth to worry about!! Rev 13:5, states, And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies: and power was given unto him to continue(make war) forty and two months. Skipping verse 6, #7 states, And it was given unti him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. The scriptures plainly state that he is given power to make war forty two months, It dosen't say that he will make war on the saints for forty two months!!.. If they were still here, he would. But they won't be here!! Their time of tribulation will be shortened!!! Matt 24:22

dd. This is a sufficient answer if one agrees that no one will be saved after the prewrath rapture.

dw. 3. Why does Jesus(God the Son) say " I am coming like a thief"? ? The biggest reason that I can think of is that He is going to come as a thief!! Why He decided to throw this in at the sixth bowl,,, I DON'T KNOW,, UNLESS, Jesus gave this warning , Rev. 2:5 "I will come unto you quickly" Rev. 2:16, "quickly", 3:11, "quickly", 22:7, "quickly". In Rev 3:3 and 16:15, he states that he will come as a thief. Jesus is warning his people, thru John, to watch!!!. Quickly, in the Greek, means suddenly.. What esle comes suddenly? The day of the Lord!! 1 thes 5:2,3 the day of the Lord comes as a thief, then sudden destruction comes upon the world... Jesus is taking time during his Revelation to John, to warn people. Why make more of this than what it is????

dd. Because it is said in the context of the 6th bowl!!!! It is said after a portion of the 6th bowl is revealed about gathering the kings of the whole world for the war of the great day of God (compare this language with 2 Peter 3:9-12. In 2 peter the day of the Lord is used interchangably with the day of God so we can understand that the day of God or day of the Lord, is being prepared for in the start of the 6th bowl. Both passages mention His coming like a thief also. Then after the blessing and warning, He does not change subjects as one would expect if the blessing and warning were an asside to the chruch at least 5 months prior, but he continues the discussion of where the kings are gathered to- HarMagedon. So the warning and blessing must be related to the battle of battle of Harmagedon. So the church or otrher blessed people must till be around at this time.

dw. 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th bowl. They do have lightnings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake. This doesn't mean that their the same!!! When the seventh angel poured his bowl out into the air, there was a great earthquake, "such as was not since mem were upon the earth!!The other two were just earthquakes!!You stated that "these repeated series of events remind me of the sun being darkened, the moon being darkened, etc.. So what?? It's nice to be reminded of something, so let me remind you of something, Inferrence doesn't mean anything.!!

dd. Now lets not get testy here. Yes, if it was only one event such as an earth quake it would be easy to stay that there are many earthquakes at this time. And I agree that this repeated series does not prove that they are all at the same time. But it is just such reasoning that tells prewrathers that the 6th seal is after the trib, and before the day of the Lord (comparing Matt 24, Joel 2 and 3 and Rev 6). The sun being darkened, the moon being darkened, etc could all happen 3 times as pretrib is forced (if they were consistent) would say they do. But it is more reasonable that they happen only once.

dw. 4. Rev 16:15, does not imply that there are saved people on the earth... You are implying it !!!

dd. (See response above on Rev 16)

dw. This goes back to the warnings that Jesus gave thru--out the book of Rev.. Rev 16:2 Rev 16:6 the reason that some of the bowls are specifically targeted to the wicked, and those who had the mark of beast, and those who poured out the blood of the saints, and those who worshipped his image is because thats all there is left,, no saints left.. Implying is like inferrence. It might mean something and it might not!!! On the other hand, if some are left alive after the wrath of God, they won't be saved, as having immortal bodies. If they survive the battle of armageddon, they might go into the mill, as mortals?? Remember Zech 14:16 that everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year, to worship the king, the Lord of host, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

dd. Are you saying that non Christians enter the millennium?

dw. 5. The 5th seal.. The authority of the antichrist to act and to kill will last 42 months. Since there won't be any saints on the earth to kill after the day of the lord starts, the last martyr to be killed will be before the rapture of the church, at the sixth seal!!! The two witnesses are two special people that have lived before, and have a special job to do. They will be killed just before the 7th trumpet.

dd. Again, this anwers the problem if one accepts that none are saved after the prewrath rapture, and that the two witness are fruitless after the 6th seal. But these are all additional assumptions which even other prewrathers have not made.

dw. 6. Heb 11:40, I have "the sign" * the revised version *. On page 406, it states, that the old and the new testaments saints will be reunited at the rapture!! I agree.. On page 405, Van Kampen states, that the martyrs beheaded (Rev 20:4,5) will not be resurected until the first day of the millennium, I disagree with this,, I believe that there will a general resurection of all saints, this including OT, NT Saints and all martyrs, at the sixth seal...

dd. I'm glad you disagree with Van Kampen on this point. It is more consistent with the statement that "this is the first resurrection".

dw. The prewrath position is a version of the posttrib position, but I think that the prewrath position makes a lot more sense. One of the main issues that keep prewrath and posttrib apart is whether the seals, trumpets, and bowls are consecutive or concurrent? Posttribs go withthem being concurrent. Since Jesus gave them in a consecutive order, posttribs have the burben of proving that he really meant a concurrent order!!

dd. This is correct that prewrath and post trib differ as to wether they are consecutive or concurrent. But why does a consecutive order get off without proving itself. The book od Daniel goes over various aspects of the future kingdoms repeatedly and Exekiel does to. I would accept that we both have to prove that the order we state is correct but just because the western mind thinks in a consecutive order does not mean that Rev is assumed to be consecutive until proven otherwise.

dw. Thanks for the web page, whether I agree or disagree, We all should study and talk or reason with each other. awalker@twlakes.net

dd. Yes, and I do appreciate your thoughtful response. You have taken several new twists to the prewrath position which if accepted gets prewrathers off the "hook" in several areas.