Correspondence by Anton Thorn
The following correspondence is my response to a visitor to my site who contacted me twice in order to discuss a few points he had in mind. In the interest of protecting his anonymity, I refer to him solely by his first name. My two responses are subtitled Part I and Part II.
To Eric,
Eric wrote:
"I am an agnostic and briefly perused your website."
Thorn:
Thanks for your message. I'm always glad to get "fan mail."
Eric wrote:
"Although I agree with many of your observations, I am surprised at how much effort you interested in attempting to deconstruct the Judeo-Christian model, and how little support was given for your own position." [sic]
Thorn:
"Deconstruct"? I'm not certain if that's the term I would use, but it is malleable enough to fit most occasions these days, so be my guest. I do use this term, however, in one of my volleys with a Catholic who raised objections against my atheism.
In regard to your surprise at "how much effort [I] interested in attempting to deconstruct the Judeo-Christian model" [1], why are you surprised?
As for "how little support was given for [my] position..." How many of my articles have you read, and how well have you understood them? Have you reviewed the sources which I cite? What kind of support are you looking for? What kind of support do you think is warranted, yet lacking in my arguments? (If you have legitimate criticisms, and would like to point to some specifics, rather than leave your objections without reference, I'd love to hear your thoughts.)
Eric wrote:
"Two points: (1) an articulate Christian thinker would take you to task in pretty short order regarding some of your conclusions about morality, cosmology, and so forth; and…"
Thorn:
I see. Do you have a particular "Christian thinker" in mind who would "take [me] to task in pretty short order regarding some of [my] conclusions" about the areas of philosophy you mention? If so, he/she is welcome to speak for him/herself. Don't you think?
To be honest, many Christians, as you can imagine, have sent me all kinds of e-mail in response to the content I've posted to my website, ranging from cautiously laudatory to what I would consider "death threat" messages. [2] Within that range of responses, many have offered some critical remarks, but none so far - save perhaps one or two which come to mind (and that would be stretching it) - have attempted to offer any point-by-point refutations to my work. I suppose if "take [me] to task" includes simply dismissing my arguments at whim without even attempting any analysis/rebuttal to my arguments, then sure, such "thinkers" are a dime a dozen (given fluctuating market trends). Then again, you get what you pay for, and may we each get what we deserve.
Then again, if you yourself know of any particular points in any of my articles and essays which you consider to be weak and/or insufficiently buttressed, you are certainly welcome to bring them forward for a second review.
Eric wrote:
"(2) why bother trying to convert religiously minded persons to your cause - as noted in the Koran, those who are blessed to hear the message, hear it; for those who god has "sealed" their hearts and ears, the message will not be heard. (This is a crappy paraphrasing of the Koran, I know.) Anyway, my point is, if Christians don't share your weltanschauung, why waste your time trying to convert them?"
Thorn:
This is actually a great question. However, I think it makes an assumption which may very well not be the case. And that assumption is: that for some reason or another I am "trying to convert religiously minded persons to [my] cause." Actually, I keep no score cards, and I am hardly interested in how many "kills" can be claimed on behalf of my criticism of religious philosophy. Whether an individual who has read and taken the time to comprehend my arguments is "deconverted" from his religious commitments, is ultimately of little concern to me. My website is merely a vehicle for publishing the work I have produced as I consider the material it covers. As you intimate, should any Christian believers (or believers of any other mystical views) not share my worldview, indeed, why should I "waste my time trying to convert them" to it? And I have no intention of "trying to convert" anyone, lest he/she truly seeks to familiarize him/herself with my ideas and the ideas of Objectivism, and cares to pursue them in an integrated fashion.
My website is a means of making public the verdicts which I have reached in regard to the areas I have studied and on which I have written. It is a profoundly selfish endeavor, my website. I invite you, and anyone else who may be at all interested in the matters I cover, to read, enjoy, agree, disagree, applaud, boo, hiss, snicker and dismiss as you see fit. Convert anyone? I am hardly so arrogant! To be honest, I doubt most people have the time or the attention span necessary to read even one of my longwinded posts, let alone take the time to be completely deprogrammed from his religious viewpoints. I leave such matters up to individual readers themselves. The intellectual welfare of my readers is simply not my responsibility.
After all, if I were "out to convert" people, wouldn't I be challenging you on your self-professed agnosticism by this point?
My hope is, for anyone who takes the time to digest any of my material, that he/she simply take the ideas which I present seriously and consider the reasoning I offer in their support. I use the subjunctive here because I think this is a long shot.
Eric wrote:
"Nice work on the Website,"
Thorn:
Thank you. I'm glad you've enjoyed what you've read so far. If what I write interests you, please return some time, as I have more material on the way.
Thank you for your message. I enjoy your questions, and I appreciate the points you are trying to make with your counter-statements.
Eric wrote:
"As for my comment 'an articulate Christian thinker would take you to task in pretty short order regarding some of your conclusions about morality, cosmology, and so forth,' below is the starting point of such a conversation."
Thorn:
Okay, let me see how this conversation goes. I'll add comments where appropriate.
Eric wrote:
"First, the Christian thinker would ask you to define your epistemology: that is, on what basis do you deny the existence of God. Is your denial based upon 'rational' or 'empirical' foundations."
Thorn:
First of all, as an Objectivist, I do not see why I should accept the dichotomy "'rational' or 'empirical' foundations." If by "empiricism" one means sensory perception, and by rationality one means "the recognition and acceptance of reason as one's only source of knowledge, one's only judge of values and one's only guide to action" [
3], I see no reason why one should consider these two jointly exhaustive or at all incompatible with one another. Of course, their integration is sealed when we make careful note of the Objectivist definition of reason: "Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses." [4]Some may have a different idea in mind when they invoke the term 'empiricism'. I have often seen this term is used interchangeably with 'skepticism', which I think is misleading. [
5] Similarly, the concept 'rationality' should be distinguished from 'rationalism', as Objectivism understands them. I quote from one of my unpublished papers which elaborates on this topic:One must not mistake rationalism for rationality, as many people do. Rationalism is not the same thing as rationality. Rationality, according to Objectivism, is both an epistemological cornerstone as well as a primary moral virtue. Rationality, according to Objectivism, is entirely opposed to the religious, primacy of consciousness view of reality. To demonstrate this distinction, Ayn Rand writes in John Galt's famous speech from her novel Atlas Shrugged:
Rationality is the recognition of the fact that existence exists, that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it, which is thinking - that the mind is one's only judge of values and one's only guide of action - that reason is an absolute that permits no compromise - that a concession to the irrational invalidates one's consciousness and turns it from the task of perceiving to the task of faking reality - that the alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind - that the acceptance of a mystical invention is a wish for the annihilation of existence, and, properly, annihilates one's consciousness. [
Such crucial distinctions as these are not found in the ancient texts that provide the foundation of any religious philosophy, especially one that so consistently follows the primacy of consciousness view of reality as does the Bible.
Rationalism, in contrast to rationality, is a different matter altogether. Rationalism, according to Objectivism, is deduction without reference to reality. In the words of Objectivist philosopher Dr. Andrew Bernstein, knowledge according to this view, "is a deductive process from internal principles and axioms from innate ideas that the soul has always had." [
7] Thus, deduction based on or following from 'internal axioms' rather than from reality. If axioms, the starting points of knowledge, are not perceptual in nature, then the result is a form of rationalism by this definition. This view of epistemology amounts to nothing less than a blatant advocacy to divorce man's mind from reality at the very start, that man begin his cognition by rejecting reality.Objectivism grants no incongruity between rationality and sense perception. Indeed, Objectivism is utterly forthright and explicit in its recognition of the crucial, harmonious, hierarchical relationship between the two. Simply, there is no rationality without sense perception, for without sense perception, rationality would have no object.
Thus, to put it briefly, I think those who want to take the course which you suggest would do well to have a firm understanding of their definitions in mind, and to treat such distinctions rather carefully. The request to identify further definitions of such crucial terms as 'knowledge', 'truth', 'reality', etc., as well as a clear understanding of the objective relationship between emotion and knowledge (which religious views of knowledge invariably have reversed), would of course follow, assuming the direction of conversation could bear it. If such distinctions are intentionally ignored or rejected by someone with whom I'm conversing, why should I continue the conversation?
But if these distinctions are accepted, as I believe they should in order to conduct any rigorous philosophical discussion without compromising objectivity, these points would no doubt generate numerous questions which would give such discussion profound depth.
Overall, the issue of one's starting points is of dire concern to any such exchange. So I think your question has definite relevance.
Eric wrote:
"If the foundation is rational, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself; that is, you might be in a self-delusional state of mind. Or, maybe your brain neurology and physiology are structured such that a meta-physical comprehension of god is impossible. Or, maybe it's a language problem, thus, it is impossible to recognize god because you do not posses the required grammar and lexicon."
Thorn:
It is true that those who insist that non-theists accept theistic claims often allege some kind of shortcoming, often outside the direct control of the non-theist, when those claims are not accepted. Of course, there is always the ready question, "How do you know you are not deceiving yourself?" The same way I know I am not deceiving myself that when I drank a glass of water this morning, my thirst was temporarily quenched, or that when I looked out the window and saw sunlight, I was certain that it was daytime. Such a question as you rhetorically pose here can be asserted in response to virtually any knowledge claim, whether of profound philosophical import or of quotidian inconsequence. Leonard Peikoff wrote a fine essay which addresses similar questions as this, titled "Maybe You're Wrong," published in The Objectivist Forum. [
8] Each of the scenarios posited in your statement ("...self-delusional state of mind...," "...brain neurology and physiology...," "...language problem....") is an attack on man's mind and rationality. They are also examples of performative inconsistency, since they assume the very thing which they attack: the validity of man's reason.Eric wrote:
"If the foundation is empirical, how do you know that you can trust your senses. Maybe recognizing god requires a sensory organ that you're not equipped with. Or maybe, the neural transmitters from your sensory organs to your brain are mis-firing, thus your getting false information."
Thorn:
Why should I accept the claim, implicit in your statement, that the senses can deceive? I've heard this claim many times and in many forms, but again such statements actually depend on the very thing which they hope to discredit: man's consciousness. Man is conscious of his surroundings (i.e., of existence) by a means of awareness. What are his means of awareness? His senses. If one claims that the senses deceive us, by what means would one proceed to show this? The classic example is the case of a pencil appearing to be bent when standing in a glass of water. Those who condemn man's senses say this is evidence - indeed, sensory evidence, the very kind of evidence they're claiming to reject - for their case that sensory evidence deceives us. But implicit in such arguments is the awareness that the pencil is not bent, but that it is straight. How do the skeptics know that the pencil is straight, but by sensory perception to begin with? [
9] The problem is not our perception, but the judgments we make about our perception. And this distinction is lost on the skeptics charging that the senses deceive.If one wants to claim that they possess a sensory organ which I lack, let him show me that organ and explain how it works. Where in the human body is it located, and why do I lack it? What purpose does this supposed sensory organ serve? How is it necessary to life on earth? (Of course, my only concern is life on earth, so if I'm lacking a supposed sensory organ which has no use except to commune with the supernatural, indeed I lack nothing.) Also, he will need to show if that means of sensation can be verified by the other senses (as the five senses we have can do to some extent). Additionally, let us find other candidates who possess this alleged sensory organ (supposing such could be found), and conduct a blind interview: each claiming to possess this supposed organ could privately record precisely that of which it gains him awareness. Each would be welcome to identify what he is supposedly aware of in the most detailed manner. Then their responses could be compared. Experiments like these are in order for those who are serious about their claim to some sixth-sense means of perception.
If someone wants to convince me of his extraordinary claims, he will have to pose serious explanations on such matters. Quite typically, however, one's epistemology is scrutinized and mischaracterized to a horrific extent when he does not accept the mystic's claims, while the mystic himself is either silent or completely vague on the particulars of his epistemology allegedly justifying those claims.
Eric wrote:
"You can see where this is going: the Christian thinker will grind away at the foundation of consciousness and epistemology, and then declare that because there is no ontological proof of anything, believing in God is just as valid as not believing in God."
Thorn:
Yes, Eric, I see precisely what's going on in such instances. And I think you're 100% right on this as well: if we reject reason ("…the Christian thinker will grind away at the foundation of consciousness and epistemology…"), then anything is valid ("…believing in God is just as valid as not believing in God"). However, reality cannot be cheated, and at the heart of such an attack on man's mind will be the unchecked premises and stolen concepts which Objectivist philosophy so rightly detects, and rejects. Those who are rehearsed at religious apologetic schemes are quick to focus all conversation and debate on the non-believer's non-acceptance of the apologist's claims. His aim is not to establish the truth of his claims by appealing consistently to the facts of objective reality; instead, his aim is to drag the focus off his own faith claims and proceed to invalidate man's mind and to discredit his capacity to reason effectively to the point that he gives up and throws his arms in open embrace of the arbitrary. The result is a philosophy built on fear and on the enshrinement of the incomprehensible, and tutored Christians defend this self-negation explicitly and tirelessly.
If you have not done so already, I recommend you read my
Atheological Credo.Other articles on my site may also shed some light on these issues. The objections and points to which you allude are confidently addressed by Objectivism. But don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.
I'm sure this will generate plenty of questions, so I invite your response.
Anyway, thanks again for your message.
Best regards,
Anton Thorn
_______________________________________
Notes
[1] I assuming that Eric meant to write "how much effort you have invested in attempting to deconstruct…"
[2] I consider any time someone condemns me or anyone else to "going to hell" and "suffering all eternity" simply for not accepting mystical ideas, to constitute a death threat. The threat of hell has only one purpose: to compel obedience. Believers who employ this threat to badger or intimidate non-believers simply reveal their own worldview's elevation of death to a place of high importance and their own worship thereof. In this sense, I agree completely with George H. Smith, who writes:
The threat of punishment for disbelief is the crowning touch of Christian misology. Believe in Jesus - regardless of evidence or justification - or be subjected to agonizing torture. With this theme reverberating throughout the New Testament, we have intellectual intimidation, transcendental blackmail, in its purest form. Threats replace argumentation, and irrationality gains the edge over reason through an appeal to brute force. Man's ability to think and question becomes his most dangerous liability, and the intellectually frightened, docile, unquestioning believer is presented as the exemplification of moral perfection. (Atheism: The Case Against God, [Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books, 1989], p. 169.)
[3] Ayn Rand, "The Objectivist Ethics," The Virtue of Selfishness, (New York, Signet: 1964), p. 28.
[5] The development of the two opposing schools of philosophy, namely the skepticists a la David Hume and the rationalists a la Rene Descartes, is the result of failing to recognize that man's sensory, perceptual and conceptual levels of consciousness are integrated and thus not in conflict with each other. Objectivism avoids this common pitfall thanks to Rand's unique conception of objectivity.
[7] Bernstein, Andrew, "The Primacy of Consciousness Versus the Objectivist Ethics", lecture, tape 2, side A.
[9] And we even have the causal explanation for such so-called illusions: light refraction. So we not only have the assumption of the validity of the senses found built-in in such arguments (since it is by sense perception that we know that the pencil is actually straight), thus committing one to a classic stolen concept, we also know the causality of the pencil appearing bent when standing in a glass of water, given the form of our perception. See David Kelley, "Concepts of Sensory Qualities," The Evidence of the Senses, (Baton Rouge, LA: Louisiana State University Press, 1986), pp. 228-242.
© Copyright by Anton Thorn 2001. All rights reserved.
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