Marciano Vs Champions of Other Eras
Marciano and Dempsey
The endless debate in boxing, or any sport, is how would the contestants
of differant times have fared against each other. It is fun to speculate,
and there will always be disagreement because it can never be resolved. Therefore,
these are my only opinions and everyone
else is entitled to their opinion.
(I originally put up this page around 1997 and people have asked for other comparisons. Also, my own opinions have changed as I've studied more on the fighters and taken input from other sources. Therefore, newer additions are marked with a red * and amendments to the orignial comparisons in red and/ or white text.--Bob May, 2000.)
First I will state my opinion on the best fighters by styles. I believe
the best all-around heavyweight was Joe Louis, the best boxer was Muhammand
Ali (followed closely by Gene Tunney), and the best slugger was Marciano.
And from this, I infer that these three would have been favored against
any of the rest if they could meet in some magical ring all at their prime.
I've since come to the realization that there are really four rather than three basic styles for fighters: classic boxer, slugger, swarmer, and boxer-puncher. In this case, the four best would be:
Classic Boxer: Gene Tunney (followed by Ali)
Slugger: George Foreman
Swarmer: Rocky Marciano (followed by Frazier)
Boxer-puncher: Joe Louis (followed by Dempsey)
Why my reversal on Tunney/Ali? More recently I've read good insights into Ali, including from such people as George Foreman, and the consensus is that Ali really never developed a good defense, relying heavily on his speed. When his speed diminished, he relied more on his ability to take a punch or cover up than the skills an Archie Moore or Gene Tunney would have employed. For this reason, I think Tunney was a better boxer than Ali.
Now, here are some of the fights as I would expect them to go:
Vs Tyson:
Marciano would have won by a knockout. Tyson was easily beaten
and knocked out by Holyfield. Iron Mike has NO heart. He is a bully who
seems awesome as long as he is fighting scared, much lesser oponents. Against
a fighter who isn't afraid of him, like Holyfield, he lacks the courage
to stay in a fight where he is being hurt. And he lacks stamina. Tyson
is a short term fighter who loses power after 4-5 rounds. Marciano
would have met him toe-to-toe, took Tyson's best shots and given him some
that were just as hard or harder, and Tyson would have lost heart just
as he did with Holyfield. And Marciano had knockout power to the end of
the fight, so even if Tyson could have kept his nerve past 5 rounds, he
would have then been fighting someone who still had impact in his punches.
When I say Tyson has no heart, I mean he lacks the mental toughness of the great fighters. Once hit with a solid punch he tends to stop fighting, then goes into one-punch mode and abandons his onslaught. He has never come back in a fight where he was behind, he has never rallied from a knockdown, something all the great fighters do. Louis was down more often than any heavyweight champion, yet only lost twice in fights where he was knocked down. And in both cases, against Schmeling and Marciano, Louis didn't stay down with the first knockdown. Dempsey rallied after being knocked down twice, once completely out of the ring, in his fight with Luis Firpo. Marciano was dropped twice, by Walcott and Moore, and continued on until he KO'd both men. But if Tyson goes down, Tyson is done.
As Larry Merchant said in comparing Tyson and Fraizer, "Frazier was a mile wide and a mile deep. Tyson is a mile wide and an inch deep."
Vs Muhammand Ali:
This would have been the best fight of all time,
with the best heavyweight boxer against the best heavyweight slugger. It
would have been similar to the Ali-Frazier wars, but even more relentless. Frazier
was a Marciano-type fighter, but Rocky was stronger than Frazier and could
take punches even better. Frazier said that when he watched Ali rope-a-dope
Foreman he thought,"He couldn't do that with Rocky Marciano. Marciano would
be beating his arms right now until he had to drop them." Ali always had
trouble with the swarming, slugger types, and Rocky was the best of that
school. If Ali could have kept off the ropes for 15 rounds, and scored
enough with his jab, he might take a decision. But in every computer simulation
I've seen, such as those run by the boxing magazines, the prediction is
that Ali would eventually be caught on the ropes and knocked out. Ali could
be hit, and Marciano could hit Very hard. Ali in his prime was almost knocked
out by Henry Cooper, who was at best a club fighter. So, I give Ali at
best even odds.
The classic boxer's worst foe is the swarmer, and Rocky Marciano was the best swarmer ever to fight in the heavyweight division. Witness Frazier's assault on Ali in their first fight, when Joe was in his prime, and you have a taste of an Ali/Marciano war, but with fatal additions for Ali. Whereas Joe's best weapon was a left hook, Rocky used an equally impressive left hook to set up a more devastating right hand. Since I wrote my first assessment of this fantasy fight in 1997, I've since seen both Frazier and George Foreman place Rocky ahead of Ali on their best heavyweight lists. As great as Ali's endurance and ability to take a punch, neither matched Marciano's and it would be a fight in which Rocky would overwhelm Muhammed with his never ending supply of punches. All Ali's tricks of holding and tying up a foe would fail against a deadly infighter such as Rocky. In fact, clinches would play to Rocky's strong suit with his short arms. If Ali had an edge it would be in his ability to cut an opponent and force an early stoppage.
It's become a recent trend to subscribe to Ali's self-made claim of being the "Greatest", much out of nostalgia or even pity for the shell of Ali we see now. But, the truth is he was often in trouble against smaller fighters. Henry Cooper weighed only 185 pounds and yet dropped him with a left hook. Bob Foster, a very good fighter, was 30 years old and only 180 pounds verses Ali's 221 pounds yet lasted 7 rounds and hurt Ali with a cut that required five stitches. Even though Ali knocked Foster down 7 times, it still required all those knock downs for him to beat the much smaller man.
Another point that's often overlooked in this hypothetical matchup is this; it's always brought up how Ali had the speed and moves of a lighter fighter, such as a middleweight or light heavy, but measure against this the fact that Marciano also fought at a middleweight pace.
So, barring a stoppage on cuts (which Rocky never had happen), I think Marciano would eventually get to Ali.
Vs Joe Louis:
This one would probably favor Joe Louis. He could box
on a par with Ali and he hit much harder. But it must be recalled that he
was knocked out by a past-his-prime Max Schmeling while in his prime, so
he wasn't unbeatable even then. You can't really judge Louis and Marciano
on the fight they did have, as Louis was past his prime and Marciano was
a hungry fighter after a title shot. After that fight, Louis did remark
that he had never fought anyone who hit as hard as Marciano. I would still
favor Louis, but would not have been shocked if Rocky knocked him out.
One point I would like to make is this; Joe himself said several times that he thought in their primes Rocky would have beaten him. In the May, 1990 issue of Boxing Illustrated, Joe Louis was quoted as saying, "very few people knew this, but I had a
weakness, a bad weakness. I didn't like to be crowded. And that was
Marciano's thing. He always crowded. I knew I could never beat Rocky." Half of any fight is believing you're going to win and if Louis believed he'd lose against The Rock no matter when they fought, then it's very probable he was right.
Charlie Goldman was asked about this very thing after Rocky knocked out an aging Joe Louis and said, "It would have been a shorter fight. A younger Louis would have come after Rocky. And nobody can survive coming to Marciano."
Vs Dempsey:
This would have been a savage brawl. Neither man ever faced
anyone as relentless and punishing as each other. It is possible this fight
would have been stopped because one or the other was badly cut or injured
in some way. It must be remembered that both men literaly broke bones,
Dempsey breaking ribs and cheek bones on Jess Willard and Marciano breaking
bones in the arms of Roland Lastarza. If this fight wasn't stopped, someone
might have died. I would favor Marciano, because I believe he hit harder,
but not by much, and he was never knocked out, whereas Dempsey was while
on his way up to the title.
Vs Foreman:
Though both were knockout artist, with Big George ranking
#2 in knockout percentage and Marciano #1, I think stamina would have been
the key. Foreman was beat by an aging Ali because, like Tyson, he was tired
after 5 or more rounds. If Foreman would have a chance, it would be in
the early rounds while he still had snap in his punches, but after 5 or
6, Marciano would have still been hitting just as hard. If Ali could knock
out Foreman, I have to believe that Marciano could have done it. In this,
I would pick Marciano with a knockout in about the 8th round.
Vs Larry Holmes:
Holmes best weapon was a superb left jab. However,
Marciano never stayed outside where a jab could be effective. I see The
Rock bulling through the jab and making it an inside fight, which Holmes
would have fought at a disadvantage. I don't think Holmes could have stood
up to the kind of mauling he would have taken once his best weapon was
neutralized. I see Marciano dropping Holmes by about the 9th round.
Vs Riddick Bowe:
If his corner people would stay out of the fight,
so that all Marciano had to deal with was a lazy, out-of-shape Bowe, I see
"Big Daddy" getting knocked out. His poor showings against Golota speak
for themselves. I pick Rocky with a knockout somewhere after the 7th round.
Vs Holyfield:
I greatly respect Holyfield, but I really think Marciano
would have been too much for him, just as I feel Louis and Ali would have
handily delt with him. He is a great fighter for this era, but I think
Rocky would have knocked him out, though I see Holyfield putting up a tremendous
effort with all his heart.
Vs Jack Johnson *:
Despite the high regard given Johnson by some boxing writers, I really don’t see him lasting the distance against Marciano. He fought a lot of small men or inexperienced men and was almost beaten by welterweight Sam Langford who stood only 5’ 8" (Sam would later put on weight and fight as a heavyweight, but as a welter he would have been in the 141-147 range). Langford even knocked him down during the fight, which went to a 15 round decision in Johnson’s favor. Johnson refused to fight Langford or any other black fighters once he was champion. I can’t imagine Rocky Marciano going down from the punch of any welterweight who ever lived. Johnson was also knocked down by middleweight Stanley Ketchel, though he did get up to knock Ketchel out.
Though a good boxer with fair power, Johnson would have been unable to hurt Marciano or even keep him at bay. I see Rocky bulling in close and pounding Johnson to the body before moving his attack up to the head and knocking Jack out within 7-8 rounds. As Richard Stockton said in "Who Was the Greatest", "Marciano’s swarming style is made to destroy a boxer like Johnson."
Vs Gene Tunney *:
Though Tunney was, in my opinion, the best pure boxer of the heavyweight division, he would not fare well against Marciano. He did beat Dempsey twice, which is no small feat, but Jack was past his prime and not in shape for even a 10 round fight. Rocky, on the other hand, was never out of shape. Marciano's aggressive, unrelenting style would have overwhelmed Tunney. I see Gene giving a great boxing exhibition through the early rounds and winning on points, but unable to avoid Rocky's bull-like tactics for the distance. In fairness to Tunney, he was another fighter who never stepped in the ring out of shape, so I don't see him failing due to lack of stamina. Also, Gene Tunney was knocked down the fewest times of any heavyweight champion, going down only once in his career, and that to Dempsey in the famous "Long Count" match. Still and all, I don't believe Tunney would have beat Dempsey in his prime and don't see him beating Marciano, either.
Vs Sonny Liston*:
Liston was actually well into his career when Rocky retired, having started boxing professionally in 1953. By the time of Rocky’s retirement in Sept. 1955, Sonny had 13 fights under his belt. In 1955 Liston weighed 202-206 and was 6’ 1" tall, so he wouldn’t have dwarfed Marciano. If they’d fought then it would have been a bad mismatch and a gifted but inexperienced Liston would have taken a beating.
Today it’s not unusual for a champion to pick up on young up and coming fighters for another easy title defense, but that type fight didn’t draw in Marciano’s era. Don King and such can hype up such a mismatch today and fool people into thinking Joe Unknown with his record of 12-0 against club fighters is a serious challenge for a champion with 35 fights and 7 years of experience as a pro.
Of course, in these fantasy match-ups I’m talking prime to prime. Liston was a feared fighter. His opponents often succumbed to that fear and were beaten before the bell rang, but Marciano feared nobody. Sonny was strong and had good boxing skills. His jab was effective and might have given Rocky trouble.
However, Liston was a complex man with many personal demons. He was a classic example of the school yard bully who wilts when he meets someone who’s not afraid of him. Against Rocky he’d have met just such an opponent; one who not only wasn’t intimidated but would also hurt him. If he quit so easily against a young Cassius Clay, what would he have done with someone like Marciano, who’s punches actually hurt?
I see Marciano bulling in on Sonny and launching a brutal body attack. The 15-20 extra pounds Liston had don’t equate into greater strength so I expect Rocky to be able to shove him around the ring like he did all other 200+ men he fought. (In fact, like he did everyone he fought) There would be some heavy exchanges for a few rounds but Marciano’s inhuman endurance and never ceasing barrage of punches would take the heart out of Liston by the 8th or 9th round, if not sooner. Somewhere around that time Rocky would land a punch, or three or four, and drop Liston. Maybe he’d get up, maybe not, but if he did the next time down would be the end.
Vs Lennox Lewis*:
I watched the Lennox Lewis/ Michael Grant fiasco just the other night and was disgusted with what passes for heavyweight champions today. Both men are huge and intimidating in appearance, but in the ring they were clumsy, awkward, and slower than an Income Tax Return.
Rocky was criticized for being clumsy, but he was a talented tap dancer in comparison to what I’m seeing with these monstrous men. Before the first round ended both appeared fatigued. Their punches were shoulder-punches or shoves without anything resembling snap.
Some people like to claim that the smaller heavyweights of the past wouldn’t have a chance against this new breed of heavyweight, but I beg to differ. They’d have the same chance as Dempsey had against Willard. In fact, Dempsey preferred the bigger men because they were so easy to hit.
Watching Lewis and Galotta lumber around the ring, can anyone honestly imagine Ali, Dempsey, Marciano, or Louis losing to such fighters unless they stood still and let them hit them?
Even though Rocky would have given up as much as 60 pounds to Lewis, he would have got inside and pounded the body. If you think Lewis is slow now, wait till he takes a few dozen serious body shots from someone who knew how to hit. If Lewis landed a solid shot he might have dropped Marciano, but it's a saying in boxing that "speed equals power" and his punches just don't have any snap to them. When Ring magazine rated the hardest hitters in boxing history they picked Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano for the heavyweight division. They didn't pick Foreman, despite the weight behind his punches, and Big George was several levels above Lewis.
By the same factors that have allowed the great middleweights to take out the average heavyweights, I believe the great, but smaller, heavyweights would maul these big men of today.
Now that Lewis has officially retired, it's possible to take a look at his career and standing among the greats. As the standard bearer for the "Super Sized Heavyweights", the best of that breed, what has Lennox shown us? He showed that like all the giant heavyweights of the past, he still had more trouble with smaller men. Against equally large men he usually fared very well and had easy fights of it. But against Holyfield, a 6'2" 215 pound heavy, he struggled in two very dismal fights. He had to go the full 12 rounds with Zeljko Mavrovic, who while 6'3" tall, weighed only 214, giving Lennox a weight advantage of 29 pounds. And he was twice KO'd by 6' 2" fighters in Rahman and McCall, neither of which will ever make the Hall of Fame.
Lennox's showing against very average fighters such as Rahman and McCall, and struggles with a great but smaller Holyfield, should give an idea of how he'd fare against the greats of the heavyweight past, despite a size advantage. His slow, cautious style and ordinary-at-best stamina would have made him a prime target for the faster, much more aggressive heavyweight greats of the past.
As they say, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog."
These are my opinions. You can e-mail me your opinions, but I will only bother to read those that are well thought out and presented. Those that start, "You're so stupid, Tyson is BAD" or some such juvenile response will be ignored, so why bother?
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