Posted 1/5/2001
WCW Sale - Ryder continues
Edited version of some recent postings on a1wrestling.com
Zenk has accomplished a hell of a lot more than Ryder
Nightstalker Jan-01-01, 08:11 AM (EST)
I have yet to comment on the Zenk/Ryder issue, but finally here it is.
Tom Zenk may not have been a headline star, he may not have been a world champion in the WWF or WCW (I know he was world champion in one of the regional area's, Pacific maybe ). But Tom Zenk was a good athlete that possessed a lot of talent.
Ask an average joe wrestling fan who Tom Zenk is ? You may get "Yeah, I remember him. Good all round wrestler". Now, ask an average joe wrestling fan, who Ryder is, and you will, about 90% of the time, get a "Who ?".
Hell, I'd been on the internet for a good 3-4 years, before I heard of Ryder. He is not the wrestling celebrity he, and others, portray him as.
So, I've read what Zenk had to say, and I've read Ryder's stuff. I can't say I agree with a lot of what Zenk had to say, but I respect his sentiments and thoughts because he has been there and done that. Ryder jumped on Zenk in my opinion. Attempted to belittle Zenk, make him come across as the small-time guy nobody ever heard of that accomplished zero while competing.
I'd say just by competing, Zenk has accomplished a hell of a lot more than Ryder will ever do in this business. As I said previously, Zenk may not have headlined a main event, chalenging for a big world title, but he has been in the business and gave his all.
Let me ask, has Ryder ever been in front of 93,000 people ? That in itself should say it all.
Then Ryder claims Zenk was carried by others. I saw Zenk compete against a lot of guys, but I really liked him best as part of the Can-Am Connection with Rick Martel. I always thought they worked very well together and complimented each other very well. I never once thought Martel carried Zenk while they were together, I never once thought any Zenk opponent carried Zenk in a match.
I accept Zenk's "bitterness", that politics etc, kept him held back. I don't think he was world title material in either WWF or NWA, but he would have made it as a IC or US champion in these promotions. Sadly, it never occured.
I enjoy listening to and reading Tom Zenk. At the end of the day, for me it is an insight into how wrestling was before everything was exposed on the internet. Before kayafabe was broken.
I read Ryder because it is still an opinion, regardless of how lame he is. I don't take a great deal to heart what Ryder has to say, after all, who is Bob Ryder in the wrestling business ?Nightstalker
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People are going overboard with the Zenk Love.
spanky Jan-01-01, 09:48 AM (EST)
"Tom Zenk may not have been a headline star, he may not have been a world champion in the WWF or WCW (I know he was world champion in one of the regional area's, Pacific maybe ). But Tom Zenk was a good athlete that possessed a lot of talent."
Eh, I think people are getting a tad out of hand with the Zenk pimping. He was a decent wrestler, but nothing more. It seems that some people want to paint him as a world class worker, but I just don't think that was the case.
"Ask an average joe wrestling fan who Tom Zenk is ? You may get "Yeah, I remember him. Good all round wrestler". Now, ask an average joe wrestling fan, who Ryder is, and you will, about 90% of the time, get a "Who ?".
RYDER & Co. don't play to average joe wrestling fan, so this comparison isn't very apt.
"Hell, I'd been on the internet for a good 3-4 years, before I heard of Ryder. He is not the wrestling celebrity he, and others, portray him as."
*nod*
"So, I've read what Zenk had to say, and I've read #####'s stuff. I can't say I agree with a lot of what Zenk had to say, but I respect his sentiments and thoughts because he has been there and done that."
I kinda enjoy Zenk's comments, if for no other reason than he names names from time to time. That said, I agree somewhat with Ryder saying that Zenk seems like a bitter person trying to cling to whatever fame he has left, and trying to bring some publicity on himself with all these interviews.
"Ryder jumped on Zenk in my opinion. Attempted to belittle Zenk, make him come across as the small-time guy nobody ever heard of that accomplished zero while competiting."
*nod*
That's Ryder's MO. Just like with his battles with Meltzer, he tends to stay away from the point of what they're saying, and usually goes straight toward character assassination... yet is quick to point out and cry foul when the tables are turned.
"I'd say just by competeing, Zenk has accomplished a hell of a lot more than Ryder will ever do in this business. As I said previously, Zenk may not have headlined a main event, chalenging for a big world title, but he has been in the business and gave his all."
Ryder's been in the business, and still is, so I'm not sure what you mean here.
"Let me ask, has Ryder ever been in front of 93,000 people ? That in itself should say it all."
*sigh*
Was Zenk responsible for even one of those 90,000 (the 93,000 number is a work) people being in the building that day? Or was he fortunate to be part of a promotion that could roll out the Hogan-Andre juggernaut and pack in the fans?
"Then Ryder claims Zenk was carried by others. I saw Zenk compete against a lot of guys, but I really liked him best as part of the Can-Am Connection with Rick Martel. I always thought they worked very well together and complimented each other very well. I never once thought Martel carried Zenk while they were together, I never once thought any Zenk opponent carried Zenk in a match."
While doing research for my DVDVR WCW Top 20 ballot, I rewatched a tag match with Zenk & Brian Pillman against the Midnight Express. Eaton & Pillman were the standouts, with Lane being solid, and Zenk just kinda being there. He wasn't bad, but he was definitley carried by the superior MX. Of course, this was just one example, but still...
"I accept Zenk's "bitterness", that politics etc, kept him held back. I don't think he was world title material in either WWF or NWA, but he would have made it as a IC or US champion in these promotions. Sadly, it never occured."
I don't think "sadly" is the right word, but I agree with the general sentiment somewhat.
"I enjoy listening to and reading Tom Zenk."
*nod*
Me too... but I think people are going overboard with the Zenk Love.
"At the end of the day, for me it is an insight into how wrestling was before everything was exposed on the internet. Before kayafabe was broken. I read Ryder because it is still an opinion, regardless of how lame he is. I don't take a great deal to heart what Ryder has to say, after all, who is Bob Ryder in the wrestling business ?"
A fairly significant presence on the internet wrestling community, albeit not necessarily a positive one.
Simon
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Ryder just seeking attention
Nightstalker Jan-01-01, 10:23 AM (EST)
If anyone of the 90,000 PAYING spectators actually paid to see Zenk at this Wrestlemania, I'd be shocked. I know I paid to see Hogan/Andre. However, I think anyone who competed at WM3 has something to brag about. I mean not many can boast they have performed infront of what was a record attendance. I know I would rather be an over-the-hill wrestler that can say I was a part of history before I would say I'm a nobody, nothing, peon so-called wrestling journalist at an inept-once-was-good-but-now-is-getting-worse-by-the-day website.
"I don't think "sadly" is the right word, but I agree with the general sentiment somewhat."
I suppose comparing who was IC champion at the time, Ricky Steamboat, then I did over push Zenk there. I still think even a little run with a title would have been good for him though.
" I think people are going overboard with the Zenk Love."
I agree. I liked Tom Zenk in his day, he makes me laugh with his recent outbursts. Basically, I don't think Ryder is in any position to be critical of Zenk, regardless of the duration he has been watching wrestling (I think he said mid-60's). To me, it is another effort for Ryder to gain heat from the internet community and have his name mentioned, as per 2 months ago with Meltzer.
Nightstalker
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Ryder a jackass
spanky Jan-01-01, 10:46 AM (EST)
"I think anyone who competed at WM3 has something to brag about."
Eh, I dunno. I think the main attractions (Hogan & Andre) and the machine behind it are the ones who really have something to brag about.
I think [Zenk] could've been good as a top tag wrestler in the WWF, but I don't think he would've made a dent in singles. He would have been okay as a singles wrestler in the NWA/WCW, where there were better workers for him to play off of and make him look good.
Ryder is a jackass for his attacks. But I think people are going to great lengths to defend Zenk from Ryder, and as a result are blindly defending some things that Zenk says and dismissing a valid point that Ryder makes.
Simon
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Zenk was tremendously over in the WCW
Dylan Waco Jan-01-01, 04:20 PM (EST)
[Zenk] wasn't world class, but he was more then decent. When I think decent I think of someone like Headbanger Mosh. I think Zenk was at least a little better then that. I'd liken Zenk to a strong utility wrestler like say a D-Lo Brown. Interestingly enough there are more then a few comparisions between those two and the direction there careers went even after getting over (and for the record I can tell you right now Zenk was tremendously over in WCW. I went to a ridiculous amount of WCW events when Zenk was in the fed and it was him, Sting, Pillman and Flair that were the biggest names in the charleston area).
"I kinda enjoy Zenk's comments, if for no other reason than he names names from time to time. That said, I agree somewhat with Ryder saying that Zenk seems like a bitter person trying to cling to whatever fame he has left, and trying to bring some pub on himself with all these interviews. "
Here's where I totally disagree. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Zenk is bitter. he has consistenly gone on record as saying he didn't have the heart for the business to make it big, which is not the commentary of a guy who is filled with blinding bitternes. While it's reasonable enough to believe that Zenk, may be attempting to "cling to his fame", he's going about it in a strange way. It seems to me that a wrestler who stays around after his prime and makes a mockery of himself is worse then a guy who makes insightful and humorous comments about those sort of personalities on obscure wrestling radio shows. It seems to me that there has been a bit of a backlash against Zenk by some internet fans for two reasons
1) It is cool to like him, and thus it is cool to say you don't like him. Like everything else, his radio commentaries WILL go out of style, and then the bashers can say that they got sick of it first. It's preparation for the end of a trend.
2) The blind sense of loyality that some fans have towards federations, promoters, and other wrestlers can make Zenk look like an ass when he shoots on them and the business as a whole. There are some avid wrestling fans who think that wrestlers are sworn to be absolutely loyal to the business even after they are out of it. Insubordination is NOT allowed no matter how important or useful a persons opinions are. It actually relates even further to the way Americans view other issues. "you sound like a crybaby when you talk about the problems of that company that you were in that went under and left you behind in the process. Don't whine, It's unAmerican."
"Was Zenk responsible for even one of those 90,000 people being in the building that
day?"Did Zenk have anything to do with succes of WM III? probably not. Does he owe Vince his life because he got to wrestle on the card? hell no. Does that have anything to do with Zenk/Ryder? Obviously not.
"While doing research for my DVDVR WCW Top 20 ballot, I rewatched a tag match with Zenk & Brian Pillman against the Midnight Express. Eaton & Pillman were the standouts, with Lane being solid, and Zenk just kinda being there. He wasn't bad, but he was definitley carried by the superior MX. Of course, this was just one example, but still... "
I haven't seen this match in a while, so I can't comment on who carried who, or if any carrying was done at all. What I can say is that Lane and Zenk are about equals in the ring and Pillman and Eaton two of the most underated workers of our time. Of course that is also irrelevant
"Me too... but I think people are going overboard with the Zenk Love."
Eh. I think Zenk is awesome, and he's one of the bright spots on a recently boring interent wrestling scene.
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Honest and matter of fact - not bitter at all
Janitor Jan-01-01, 04:27 PM (EST)
I am compiling questions for Zenk ... and reading his stuff. He appears honest and matter of fact. Not bitter at all.
I skimmed your answers, and will answer more when I get a chance ... they look good.
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Zenk comments rubbed me the wrong way
spanky Jan-01-01, 05:26 PM (EST)
"I think Zenk was at least a little better then that. I'd liken Zenk to a strong utility wrestler like say a D-Lo brown."
I would (and did) say that Zenk was capable of being an effective undercard wrestler. But to me, much like the overrated D-Lo, that's "decent" and not much more.
"here's where I totally disagree. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Zenk is bitter."
Perhaps I misconstrued what he said, but things like some of his comments on Hansen seemed a little sour. Of course, as was mentioned, he may be right about our boy Stan. Still, some of his comments rubbed me the wrong way. Not many, but a few........
"haven't seen this match in a while, so i can't comment on who carried who, or if any carrying was done at all."
It's pretty good. Zenk wasn't bad, but Eaton and Pillman were clearly the ones carrying the bout. .........Pimping the greatness of Bobby Eaton is never irrelevant!
"Eh. I think Zenk is awesome, and he's one of the bright spots on a recently boring interent wrestling scene."
Like I said, I enjoy most of his comments. His site is cool too, if for no other reason than that freaked out picture of him with a gun . I think my real beef isn't with Zenk, but rather with all those bringing the "Zenk is number one and the best~!" spiel.
Simon
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Clinging to fame?
Dylan Waco Jan-01-01, 05:47 PM (EST)"it seems to me that a wrestler who stays around after his prime and makes a mockery of himself is worse then a guy who makes insightful and humorous comments about those sort of personalities on obscure wrestling radio shows."
"Sure, A is worse than B, but..."
..you are still assuming that Zenk is trying to cling to his fame at all. Really it's open for debate. It's also open to debate as to whether that is a bad thing. Dick Beyer has been on Meltzer's show but know one accuses him of trying to cling to fame. Why else would he go on the show then? Trying to find an open spot to wrestle? Somehow I doubt it......
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Zenk = ratings
Rage Of Angels Jan-01-01, 10:52 PM (EST)
Number one... everyone underestimates Ryder's influence within WCW. I hate to say it, but according to Keller, Ryder is actually one of the most influential backstage. He sure as hell is quick to do Bischoff's bidding, and we all know Bischoff is coming back, so...
Number two, I am tired of hearing the mantra that Zenk is bitter. I agree with Dylan. There is no way Tom Zenk is bitter. Zenk's stories about WCW are no different than Raven's musings on Don Owens' Promotions, funny as hell and a window into the reality of the behind the scenes graps game. Well, except that Raven's anecdotes are a little fonder.I likened it in another thread to a comedian who uses prior career experiences as fodder for his stage show. No one says, "hey, he's bitter". The laugh, and sometimes they gain insight as well. Also kinda like the "Dilbert" comic strip.
As far as Zenk's comments about Hansen... the guy was nearsighted and did hurt a few people along the way. He's nonetheless very popular in the locker room, but that doesn't change the truth of Zenk's observations. We're talking, after all, about a guy who's initial fame came from dropping Bruno Sammartino on his head attempting a simple bodyslam, for God's sake.
Nothing Zenk said about Hansen was malicious, either.
Here's the bottom line. Zenk = ratings. He's entertaining, and most of his insights, as in likening the rumored WCW sale to Bischoff as "a fire sale to the arsonist", are thought-provoking.
RAGE OF ANGELS
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It should be obvious ....
spanky Jan-01-01, 11:32 PM (EST)
"As far as Zenk's comments about Hansen... the guy was nearsighted and did hurt a few people along the way."
Any examples to back that up? I'm not saying it's true or not true, but aside from bruising the hell out of Kenta Kobashi I don't remember any specific instances of Hansen's vision leading to serious injuries.
"We're talking, after all, about a guy [Hansen] who's initial fame came from dropping Bruno Sammartino on his head attempting a simple bodyslam, for God's sake."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the result of an honest mistake, same as Owen Hart damn near killing Steve Austin or D-Lo paralyzing Droz?
"Nothing Zenk said about Hansen was malicious, either."
"Hansen knew we had good looks and good bodies. He knew we were over. So he f***** up the match. He ignored the spots. He brawled to stop us looking good." - Tom Zenk
Those aren't exactly fighting words, but they strike me as a tad bitter and/or malicious.
"Here's the bottom line. Zenk = ratings. He's entertaining, and most of his insights, as in likening the rumored WCW sale to Bischoff as "a fire sale to the arsonist", are thought-provoking."
Thought provoking? They're all well and good, but did anyone really need Zenk to point out how irony was shoving its boot up WCW's ass by having Bischoff buy the company? It should've been obvious.
Simon
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Hansen break bones
BrokenTable Jan-01-01, 11:39 PM (EST)"Any examples to back that up?"
I know I'm going back aways for this (but actually a good thing because I believe this would be during Zenk's WCW tenure), but I remember reading in the Observer during the early 90s that Hansen, during a squash, has broken bones in a jobbers face after smashing him with a lariat too hard. You'll forgive me if I don't dig through years and years worth of Observers to get the exact details, but I do remember that much for a fact.
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Corrected
spanky Jan-02-01, 00:00 AM (EST)Fair enough.
I stand corrected.
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See also - The Tom Zenk Forum from rspw (moderated)