'Wrestling's watchdog'
Tom Zenk on Rasslin Radio
Sunday December 10, 2000
Hosts - Big Daddy and The King
BDK - "Thanks Tom for coming back on the show for the second time in 6 months - You've been the hottest thing on wrestling talk shows."
Tom - Why is that?
BDK - That's what we wanted to ask you!!
Tom - Hang on - who's asking the questions? What's going on? What about Governor Ventura and the XFL? He's going to unionize them - right?
Jesse's in favor of unionizing prostitutes. What's the difference? Wrestlers are just whores, bickering over the price
BDK - You think so?
Tom - Jesse's a member of the Screen Actors Guild, right. And do you remember the Larry King Live show with Ventura and Bischoff. Jesse's on record saying there that wrestlers should unionize - Bischoff wasn't. And did you read the Playboy Article? He's in favor of unionizing prostitution. What's the difference? We're just whores - bickering over the price..... We should have unions in wrestling. Look at all these old timers. And look at all the young men dying. What should we do - pile the bodies outside WCW to show how they run their business and how they treat their workers?
BDK - Y'know Tom we had Honky Tonk Man on a year or so ago and he said that when Owen fell to his death that night, Vince made $1 million from the life insurance policy and he didn't have to pay him for the show....
Tom - Well you can see how Vince cares for the talent. Like he said when I was there, "This thing is bigger than the NFL." And "its like a family, the WWF." I just didn't buy any of that BS.
BDK - So how do you feel about your Governor commentating. Are you for it or against it?
Tom - I'm sure Jesse meant well and he didn't think he would ever win the election. Now he's got to be held accountable. He's an employee of the state. And I believe the demographics of his support base are mainly young blue collar workers, especially men, who know the value of unions - so...
Now with Vince and the XFL - do you remember Vince's bodybuilding's federation?BDK - The WBF, yeah!
Tom - Bret Hart knows and I know- it was the wrestlers who subsidized the bodybuilders. Is it going to be the same thing with the XFL? Are they going to have two different standards for drugs and deaths and stuff.
BDK - I think it going to be a bit different with NBC bearing some of the brunt. But I see where you're going with that. Vince wouldn't have been able to do the WBF if it weren't for the success the wrestlers were bringing to the company.
Tom - it was built on their backs. And I wonder what's going to happen when the guys work out that they're subsidizing the XFL players salaries.
BDK - During your time with WWF did anyone talk about unionizing. We've
had people on who said that Ventura tried to get it organized but Hogan ratted him out
with McMahon.Tom - Yeah Hogan was the top dog - and he had Vince's ear. But if you
notice, none of these guys was too loyal to Vince when they saw ATM Eric down at WCW - they all ran down to WCW and they've never gone back to Vince. I can believe that Hogan would do that because he's just looking after number one. Just like he has in WCW. ....The problem with wrestlers is that they don't stick together.
I read things about people like Bagwell saying - they're not happy - they want a release - Well GO!!!!!!!
BDK - Now what do you think of the current situation in WCW. You have an open letter to Brad Siegel from yourself that's up on the Wrestling Observer site.Tom - What did you think of that? Am I off base? Should I just go away or what?
BDK - We've both read it. And don't think you're off base. I think we need a watchdog like you. We don't need a watchdog like the PTC. We need a watchdog of someone who's been in the business and has a first hand account of what's going on. And I definitely think you've hit on a lot of good things here - especially the point you make about TBBS starting a new company. If they want to sell their remaining guys to Eric Bischoff - let them do it. There shouldn't be a no-compete clause and let Time Warner rebuild their own company from scratch.
Tom - Exactly - what are we talking about - a 2.0 or 3.0 rating. That's all they get. So let's not confuse this. Its RASSLIN'. In the south-east, it's different from any part of the country that I've ever wrestled in....If they could jettison all the old guys who are making the big money - or taking the mail box money, I should say, while sitting at home - I read things about people like Bagwell saying - they're not happy - they want a release - Well GO!!!!!!! (laughter) WCW DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE YOU ANYWAY!!. YOU'RE WASTING TIME!!!! Look at Benoit. How can they say their mistake was to let him go, when they hadn't used him right for 5 years. No-one EVER progresses in WCW. You can't run a business with neighborly love and the good ol' boy network and looking after Daddy's boys. You just can't do that anymore. It was really cool when Turner bought the company but they've run him into the ground. Nothing has progressed in 10 years.
BDK - You mentioned Daddy's boys in one of the paragraphs in this letter to Siegel. Dustin Runnels is apparently being paid $750,000 a year to sit at home. What's up with that?
Tom - I just don't know......
BDK- Tom do you think you have something still to give to the business. Do you feel a need to give it.
Tom - I'm just stating my case. In WCW to get the ratings they've been paying guys millions - its good for the boys - but you can't run a business like that. It's a money maker - it always made money and they had the best resources available with Ted Turner and they couldn't make it pay. That's what concerns me. ..... now with the XFL going - and potential problems between the WWF guys and XFL over salaries and condition - they should really have a go at Vince - start a whole new company, get everyone on the same page, with the same goal, and adjust the salaries and labor costs to the money they have and what they really are - the number two wrestling company - they can't compete with Vince. They don't know how to follow through angles and story lines. I can't follow it.
BDK - Do you watch Nitro?
Tom - Once in a while. But the guys I work with, don't watch it. There
was a big buzz a couple of years ago. It's on a downward spiral now, I've gotta believe. The business as a whole. Like the early 90's when I was in WCW - that was a cycle - then it picked up in 1996 - 97 - But now with the XFL going - and potential problems between the WWFF guys and XFL over salaries and condition - they should really have a go at Vince - start a whole
new company, get everyone on the same page, with the same goal, and
adjust the salaries and labor costs to the money they have and what they really are - the number two wrestling company - they can't compete with Vince. They don't know how to follow through angles and storylines. I can't follow it.BDK - We can't either. In fact I don't watch. Its very frustrating. Like last week on Thunder, Steve Ray interviews Dallas Page and Kevin Nash. They spent the entire interview talking about Scott Hall. In and of itself, that's stupid - he's not an employee anymore. Then knowing that the whole interview is about Scott Hall, they bleep his name out. So it was an impossible interview to follow and it epitomizes what's going on in the company right now. Thunder is taped. Why air that when its such a waste of time?
Tom - (laughs) Well it blows my mind. And then they say they're friends of Scott Hall And he's driving the wrong way, going to pick up his kids. If they're friends - wouldn't you help a guy who has a problem. He's been through treatment how many times. These guy are just talking out of both sides of their mouth to push themselves. I just don't understand that.
BDK - When you look at an individual like Scott Hall - who's obviously screwed his life to the point that WCW's finally gotten the message and finally fired him - but then ECW gave the man a chance to straighten himself out - then he got arrested again. Is that what the business does to some guys - the business is just so hard to keep up the daily routine. Does it do that to people?
TOM - Well I think it drives people a little bit crazy, nuts, paranoid. You know, you don't trust people, Steve Austin has been quoted as saying "Trust no-one". Even Goldberg. They beat him. You feed a fire. Goldberg was the most exciting thing to come along and what did they do? They killed him off. They could have done the same program with Goldberg as they did with Hogan in the late 80s in the WWF feeding him worthy opponents. That's what I would have done. People were standing up for this guy. But no. Kevin Nash had to beat him. That's not business. And that's why they'll never catch Vince. But getting back to your question - on the road. Yes. Night after night. Pain and painkillers. You have to get to sleep, so sleeping pills. It's all part of the business. And once you get the hook in you, like Scott Hall, it's a terrible thing. ....
'I'd put the WCW 'stars' in a padded room with Nailz and Scott Norton to sort out their problems with the company...' BDK - Tom - I'm going to give you a hypothetical. Let's say WCW called you tomorrow - we're going to do exactly as you said and we're going to build our own organization and we want you to start it. Now what guys from WCW's current roster would you keep to start a brand new promotion with?
Tom - There's a few key people. Terry Taylor would be one of them. Johnny Ace is good with finishes and I know him and trust him. Then I have other people I would bring in - a couple of attorneys and accountants just to look over things. But do you remember Nailz - Kevin Wacholz - have him in one room - a small desk in one room - real simple, real cheap - I'd have Nailz and Scotty Norton in the next room over - maybe we could pad the walls or something - we could have the guys come in one by one to state their case, without their attorneys or anything - and they can impress us over the last few years how many million they're making per year and what they did for the company - and if they don't like what we have to say, or the way we talk to them - they could go settle it with Wacholz or Scott Norton. How about that?
BDK - Two of the legitimately tough men in the business....That sounds like two good hours of television right there. (laughter) ...
Tom - These guys got carried away, they worked Eric. Now they've got to
'fess up to it. But don't sign a no-compete clause because they'll still get a good number if they revamp this whole deal. Taylor knows what to do, but if you watch any interviews with Taylor, he walks right down the middle - plays both sides of the fence. He puts over Vince real good. How does he put over Vince ? Did he like the Red Rooster gimmick? People laughed at him. They were snickering at him when I was in WCW.BDK - Did they really? Did the boys laugh backstage?
Tom - Sure of course. That was a rib. Who would do that. Put your hair
like that? When I was wrestling him in Philly the fans were shouting "Rooster. Hey Red Rooster." And they used to call me "Hey Can-Am - You quitter. Zenk - you quitter." I mean the fans are funny - they hassle you. They giggled when Dustin Rhodes was in there, when I was losing to Dustin Rhodes, at how loose his work was.BDK - What do you think of the report this week that somebody said to
Brad Siegel that Jerry Lawler is not signed to a contract with the WWF so why don't we try and steal him away. And Siegel said 'Who's Jerry Lawler?". And this is the guy who's running the company.Tom - Yes but... I dated a secretary down there and I got some inside
information from her and a couple of other ladies who worked from Turner. They thought wrestling was just a joke. The executives just thought Ted's just loyal to wrestling because it put him over the top with that UHF channel. That's what built Turner World down there. Yes I can believe that about Siegel. But its just something you have to deal with. You have to have
someone who's associated with the business to do good in it, to a
degree, but on the other hand - all the great booking minds have down nothing down there in WCW. Now why do you think that is?BDK - They only push their friends.
Tom - Yeah. You've got it. They're not doing business down there - you
have to do business.BDK - One of the guys we've had on the program recently was Gary Michael
Capetta ...Tom - a good guy...
BDK - He was a ring announcer in WCW right around the time you were
there and he said the exact same thing. I thin the exact quote was that "Wrestling was the bastard child of the Turner networks." But lets talk about your recent encounter with Jim Ross. Was he responding to something you said on a radio show?Tom - Dave Meltzer reported how the average salary of a baseball player was $1.8 million a year. Yet there's not one team including the New York Yankees that takes in the same money as WWF. The average salary of a WWF wrestler is half that of a major league baseball player. So then Ross comes firing back on the kayfabe sheet, Meltzer's sheet, saying that the total money taken by performers in the WWF is in the $60 million range. Well if WWF really did spend $60 million on talent, with say 70 on the roster that's maybe $800,000 or $900,000 a year average, and that's still only half the average salary of a major league baseball player. They're just twisting the numbers. Now Jim Ross, I know he'd just love to be on the XFL as an announcer, riding along on Vinnie's coat tails. But I don't think he's going to cut the mustard.
BDK - They say JR is the best announcer in the business and I have to agree with that. Do you think he is?
Tom - That's a real tricky thing. When they're in their production meetings, whoever the booker is, they decide who to push. They can make or break you. So if you suck up to JR or if you're buddies with him or if you have a relationship with him - or any of them including Jesse Ventura - as Dynamite Kid and Mick Foley said in their books - they can put you over. But at WCW, they [the color men] didn't push the right talent. And the people that they pushed didn't have much talent (Dustin, Watts etc). So the announcers, like everyone else, did the wrong thing and played politics and look where WCW is at, as a consequence.
BDK- Well you were in a tag team for a long time - in fact you were one half of the US tag champions at one point. Did you want to be in the tag team division?
Tom - No! I wanted to be in the singles when I originally signed. But with Pillman, it was a real good deal. Two young guys, good-looking, blonde haired guy, dark haired guy - we had a real good combination. But then you can't take up a single spot. They had Luger, Sting and Flair as baby faces when I signed. And guys are always fighting for spots. And it worked out great. But then we were broken up for no reason. And it was never explained. You're breaking us up and we're popular? What? It's how they manipulate things.
'A hell of a match ...'
BDK - I'm going to come out of the blue with something I just thought about. Wrestle War '92. One of the best PPV's I've ever seen. It was you versus Pillman actually for the light heavyweight championship. Another match on that card was the Steiners against Fujinami and Iizuka. And the Steiners brutalized the two Japanese guys. Do you remember that?
Tom - A little bit - like they took advantage or wanted to come over strong.
BDK - Why would the Steiners do something like that?
Tom - Well. it's like Stan Hansen - (imitating Hansen) - "Well damn boy, if you can't get the match over, get yourself over." Always look strong. That's how the top guys do it. They always looked stronger. With the Steiners, maybe contract time was up, I don't know - We got a big lecture in the locker room that day. They sprung (a new booker) Bill Watts on us. He came in the locker room and told us how to think and how to act. And he told us the way it was going to be - back to the old style - and kayfabe and "I don't want you ringing Meltzer or anyone." And he read the riot act. So maybe the Steiners were kinda wound up. Brian and I were trying to put on a good show....
BDK - You guys put on a hell of a match ......
Tom - Yeah but Brian Pillman .. this is the funny thing. Brian asked me a week earlier "What do you want to do for the match." I said "You're the heel. You call the match." Y'know we were friends. He came up with the match. He told me the whole match. He timed it. He had everything down in his head. We sat down in the shower room. He called all the spots. Gave me the general layout. He really was fantastic. He had a big ego or pride about his work - Brian was always the underdog, the litttle guy who always fought back. We had a heck of a match - BUT - everyone there who saw the match, all the great booking geniuses - Bill Watts, Dusty - I guess they never picked up on the match that we had ...
BDK - because there was never a re-match ...
Tom - Exactly. There was never a rematch!!
BDK - That match happened one time - and I never understood that either. Typical WCW!!
Tom - So they had something going on there, something very wrong. If they knew the business, how could they not see that Brian and I were friends and that if we were former partners, they could have turned the angle - but there was no build up apart from something I thought of - but there was no real heat to get the heel hot. And then he's beating a bigger guy, just to humiliate me. Boy they sure taught me a lesson. I don't mind losing but they could have done SO much more with that angle, especially after we had a good match. Because that chemistry is hard to find. Two guys who have pride in their work and who'll work hard.
BDK - Now during the answer to that question you broke into an impression of Stan Hansen. Now one of the most enjoyable and memorable segments of your last appearance here was your impression of Dusty Rhodes...
Tom - (Impersonating Dusty) "Now lithen baby, I wath on Dave Meltzer's thow about mah thun. An' ma thun is one of the top hands...and he's thittin at home collectin mail box money. OK baby, he's going to take care of hith daddy. I want to push him to be WCW Worl' Thampion, tho he can take care of hith daddy." Yeah - he's still taking bumps, Dusty Rhodes at about 60 years old..
BDK - Yeah ECW earlier this year.
Tom - Oh no - really?
BDK - Oh yeah - he had a program with the now ECW chammpion Steve Corino. We saw him live in a bunkhouse match in April.
Tom - Oh really. That kind of brings me to the point. It's kinda sad but I'll rail on him because he didn't do me any favors. But that's the problem with wrestling. The independent contractors. We aren't independent contractors - we're employees. They should have insurance, 401k, a union or something. Look at Harley Race, still running a camp, Dusty's still working. You can put them on a cycle where you draw money and you stay on top but eventually your time is up - and they don't have a pension and they don't seem to last too long. A lot have died at young ages.
BDK -What's next for Tom Zenk? Do you ever work charity appearances. Can people ever see you in a ring again?
Tom - No. Not in the ring. It's not my time anymore. I know that. Physically, it's a young man's business. My time was in WCW - that would have been my prime years. But they fumbled the ball - they didn't use me right. They didn't use a LOT of people right. First I thought, 'what, is this personal?" But then there was Pillman, Benoit and so on. The list of guys who Vince could somehow use but WCW couldn't - all because they have their own deal going on down there.
BDK -Well, at least people can find out about you on your website. We looked at it this morning. 4 million hits - not bad Tom. You must be doing something right. A lots of appearances across wrestling radio and talk shows. And you're on Dave Meltzer's radio later this week - Wednesday - we do thank you for being on the show
Tom - Well thank you very much for having me on RASSLIN RADIO and we'll talk again next year.
back to main page
