Tom Zenk 
Pro Wrestling Radio
Levittown, Pa
9/30/2000
Part 2
 

"The interview that other media were too scared to carry!!!"  - RF Video

"This is the most controversial interview I have ever conducted on my show." - Eric Gargiulo
 
 

Eric - What lead up to you pretty much hanging it up. I mean you had a real good thing going, you were always in great shape, and ahead of a lot of the other guys?

Z  -  Well, it just depends on the bookers. I went through Ole, Flair, Dusty, Bill Watts. They all had their turn with the Turner people. I'm sure that the Turner people, Herd, Petrick, and Kip Frey, and look at what they did to that Bill Busch. They've all had their run. They manipulated them. Then they were sick of wrestling talent being in charge so they got Bischoff. He talks out of both sides of his mouth. He knew how to play the corporate game and then the boys hooked him..... He's just a guy that likes to hang out with big guys. I'll never forget his son down in Florida one time at a TV taping. Remember when they used to do it down at Disney? I said "Hey, how're you doing?" He said "Do you know who my dad is? My dad's Hulk Hogan's boss!" I wonder where he got that from? 'Out of the mouths of babes..." So the psychology was quite easy to figure out with Eric. And all Eric was in the AWA was a coffee boy for Verne Gagne. So how come he got that spot? He must have wrote a heck of a resume, but I think there is a story that Jason Hervey, I heard a rumor once. That he wrote to the Turner people that he was real interested in hiring Eric as a game show host and Jason kind of put him over the top. It's like in wrestling when nobody wants you, nobody wants you. When somebody wants you, everybody wants you. It's like DDP putting out rumors. I heard he was in the WWF office. I'm sure they said "Yeah, OK we'll keep in touch." I'm sure Vince just grabbed his belly and had a heck of a belly laugh with that fool walking out of the office. I mean what is he - 55 years old?

Eric - Yeah pretty much ....

Z - The only reason why he got anywhere was because of Bischoff, his next door neighbor ......and maybe his wife.

Eric - Well that helps .... You mentioned Bill Watts there. Now a lot has been said about the myth and the legend of Bill Watts. A very fascinating man to listen to.  What was it like working for Bill Watts?
 

Zenk vs Pillman in a 5 star match at Wrestlewar '92 

Z - He came in and he played that big, old, tough cowboy. (impersonating) "Now you boys are gonna get back to kayfabing and being professional."  The day he came in and read the riot act in the locker room was the day of that match I had with Pillman in Jacksonville, FL (WrestleWar '92). So we went out there and we tried to steal the show. And we had a heck of a match. But, if anyone was watching that. Pillman and I worked good together, just like Benoit and myself or Austin, but THEY NEVER MADE ANYTHING OF IT. Bill came in, he didn't care. He cut salaries, and I think he got a percentage of what he cut. ..... He was full of BS also. Putting himself over. He didn't last long. What do you think of his son? I think he was getting like 750 a week to get trained at the training camp.What kind of message do you think that sends in the locker room for guys that just stumble upon the business, work their butts off, like in ECW. Travel around the world and try and be something. And then the booker puts his son in there and the kid's got two left feet. He's never made it without daddy. But I guess it's the American way, look at Bush and look at Al Gore. So ...I don't know.

Eric - You also worked with Paul E. [Heyman] when he was a manager?

Z - He was a great guy. A great guy. He was really good. I remember him, he was really nice to me in New York when I was first getting in the business with Verne. We traveled around Manhattan, he set me up with some chics, a lot of fun. He was a great guy. How is he doing by the way?
 

 
Eric -Last week was supposed to be the last week on television with TNN..  But they extended him with the help of Vince McMahon  to the end of the year or until he gets another deal

Z - I wonder why they don't get it hooked up together. Vince and Paul E. They are both New York boys and why don't they feed off each other, have a little talent pool or help them out. Vince has a lot of money now.

Eric - I wonder if they've worked out something like that behind the scenes?

Z - That's what I would think. Paul E.'s real clever and real crafty. He's a survivor. He's been around the business since he was a kid I believe.

Eric - So you're not surprised at the success he had with ECW?

Z - Not at all. See that's the thing. Paul's got a great mind for it and he's tenacious too. He doesn't back down. I saw him throwing a garbage can at Ric Flair, like they were in a cat-fight. "Oh yeah, f'  you, and f' this." Back and forth. It was a draw. No punches were thrown, but he was mad as heck and they were back and forth, back and forth. It was great entertainment. It's a great memory of mine. He didn't take anything from Ric. Yeah, he stood his ground and I always knew he'd be a success and always be in the business. He's got a great mind, they (WCW) should use it. They should put their egos aside and let's do business. With all the money that they've spent in WCW,  Harley Race could still be on the payroll. They never take care of their own kind.

Eric - You'd think so.

Z - Yeah but different minds have different perceptions. ..... Oh man, they could collaborate but the guys don't stick together.
 
 

Deep thoughts by Dusty Rhodes - " I think steroids are a drug and I'm living proof that you don't need steroids to be the best in this profession" (WON 06/17/91).

Eric - Yeah, now another guy you mentioned you worked alongside was Steve Austin. Are you surprised at his success?

Z - No, he was one of the hardest working guys, always in shape, he could go, go, go. I never had a problem with him, he never hurt me. He was always careful. He was with his first wife, Jeannie I think? That was his valet. But all I was doing was kind of getting him settled down or experienced putting in 20, 15 minutes and just kind of being vanilla, getting him ready for Dustin.

Eric - Yeah - feed him to Dustin, ha ha.
 

Vince dressed The American Dream in polka dots and the fruit of his loins in a fat suit, wig and makeup.

 

Z - Yeah. Shine him up and feed him to Dustin! The best Vince could do [for Dustin] was dress him up, give him a wig and some makeup. Just like they did to daddy and the polka dots. They don't use people right in WCW. Look at all the talent they had that went to Vince and he made them stars.

Eric - Exactly. Look at Benoit. He was there for 4 years and they didn't even use him in the world title picture until the last six months. But he's been with Vince for less than six months and he's already in the title picture.

Z - Exactly! Vince, I'm sure he just laughs at what fools they are in WCW. He runs a class act, or he knows the wrestling business. He lives it. That's why he's successful. Down in WCW, they got hold of the pocketbook. They don't have professional management, you know what I'm saying? Vince is living proof that the style works that he has. He's going to have to be held more accountable now because his company is a publicly listed company. WCW is living proof that you can't put old style promoters close to other people's money and expect there to be anything left at the end of the day.

Eric - When is the Tom Zenk book coming out?

Z - I don't know, there's something in the works but I don't know how cutting edge to be.

Eric - Well these days everyone is just saying whatever's on their minds.

Z - Yeah but I always did  that before when I was in the business. I have always been pretty much of a straight shooter. Have you read any of the books?
 

"DDP -  the king of rehabbing. Oh, c'mon. Just give it up!!"

Eric - Wel I read Mick (Foley)'s book.

Z - I read Mick's book, I read DDP's book but Dynamite Kid's book was the best and most honest with Foley's so far.

Eric - Dynamite's book was awesome.  DDP's book was great but he just talked about how great he was.

Z - But that's his favorite subject, you know what I mean? DDP, it's like. OK, in the book. Can you see where all the guys allude to all the pads, the knee pads. They ribbed him!!  This guy was bandaged up. He's the king of rehabbing. Oh, c'mon. Give it up.

Eric - The book WAS kinda funny. Everytime someone had a excerpt in there, instead of a story,  it was just talking about how great DDP was.

Z - Yeah, yeah like " Can you guys please say something good about me".

Eric - And Rocky's book. It's a good idea but what does this guy have to say. He's only been in the business about 4 years!

Z - Well, he drew out the mega-mall here in Minneapolis. He drew the biggest crowd they ever had. There were people lined up for the book signing. He's really a show man and it's like WCW never learns. It's always someone else's turn. Not Z-Man's turn, not Hulk Hogan's, not Ric Flair's, there are always young guys. It's a young man's business and they think the world is gonna stop when they are done with wrestling. Well, I've got news, it just keeps going on and on. I mean, look at Vince. Look at how they created him (Rock) from nothing.

Eric - Well with Kevin Nash, Gary Coleman and Jeff Jarett .....

Z -  Now that Jeff Jarrett .... didn't he get beat by a woman? How does he have a top spot in WCW? He got beat by a woman? What's that?

Eric - Well, it's the good ole boys network...

Z - That's right, Jerry Jarrett promoter in
Tennessee. That's right.

Eric - He's also Vince Russo's boy, what can I tell you.

Z - I don't know. I don't see any talent with Jeff. He's short and he's just really not much of anything.

Eric - I don't see any talent whatsoever in the guy. You know he's the kind of guy who - and this is my opinion - that they give you the ILLUSION  is over becasue they put him on TV so much. But he's not!

Z - Yeah. He's not over. Just look at the gate. You can hear the crowd. Who they roar for. Now, this is my biggest axe to grind. I used to take it personally. I used to thin "God did I do somthing wrong?" What did they do to Bill Goldberg? What's the deal with this guy? I've never met him, but I got phone calls "Who's this Goldberg guy?" The guys at work, they were really into it with Goldberg. They took the shine off this guy in record time. Gosh.

Eric - It's UNBELIEVABLE. They had their Rocky and they had their Steve Austin right under their noses.. and you know Tom, exactly, it's just the politics. He was too new to the business and he didn't know how to play the political game.
 
 

"the dangerous games, the dirty games. Look at the bodies piled up. Rude, Pillman. I mean, I never buried any guys that I knew other than wrestlers."

Z -  Well I knew how to play the game. I didn't kiss anyone's arse in the business and I still don't. I walked away from it.  ....Oh my! If you play the game, you're gonna get burned and I gotta look at myself in the mirror [next day]. Some of these guys that play the game, well I guess they're good for the economy. I'm sure they're pissing away their money. But, oh man, just the dangerous games, the dirty games. Look at the bodies piled up. Rude, Pillman. I mean, I never buried any friends or guys that I knew OTHER than wrestlers. I mean, that's really sad.

Eric - Very sad.

Commercial break.

Eric - I knew a couple of the boys and would go back to the lockerroom in Philly some times. You used to come in and there was no hold on you and you would talk about anything and anybody. You could have a guy standing 5 feet away from you and you'd say "This guy sucks!" And what was funny was, when Vince had that thing going down with the sex scandals, you were very vocal about that stuff that was going on there.

Z - Oh yeah, I knew about the different things. I mean, didn't anyone ever figure it out. I left all the sudden. I mean you can read about it in the court papers [from McMahon's 1994 trial]. It was Rick Martel, Pat Patterson, and Terry Garvin. I mean all of a sudden that happens [his departure], what did they think? That was the most fun I ever had, wrestling for that territory for Vince. That was what I wanted to do. Wrestle for the WWF. Above the Mason-Dixon line THAT'S wrestling.  I never thought about going down south to the NWA and fighting Dusty and that clique of guys. I knew what was going on there. I heard from Martel. I mean, I worked hard in the WWF, but Rick cut his own deal. As to the WWF scandals ... Oh my God. Well now Vince is going to have to be accountable [with public listing] and that stuff can no longer go on. I mean just think about the lives these guys have affected because they had some stroke with the office. I mean, I've never been in any territory that was run like that. Maybe it's changed now, but it's like "Oh my God and YOU'RE an agent to the company." The best thing was just to walk away and then they sued me for every penny I made!! What! $77,000 and you disrupted my relationship with my girlfriend at the time and papered her parents house. I mean, c'mon you big bully Vince. That's pretty chickensh@t.

Eric - How did that lawsuit go?

Z -  I stalled them for two years. They wanted money that I signed in Japan and they wanted a percentage. I said "Mrs. McMahon, you don't have TV in Japan. You had it for one week and they canceled it." They said "We have to have something to show that you just didn't walk away." The only money consideration in my WWF contract was 50 dollars for TV, like it said in Dynamite Kid's book. You gotta be really proud of that Vince? I mean back in 1987, Wrestlemania 3. He had the nerve after Sheik and Duggan got pulled over and they had some gimmick on them. He said, and I will never forget it -  I looked around the room. I sat in the back and I was listening to him pontificate to the boys  - "This thing [wrestling] is bigger than the NFL," and everyone was sitting there and shaking their heads like puppets. I'm thinking "The NFL has a Players Union." I mean, OK Mr. PT Barnum. Just a big Carney. I thought "This goof. My checks aren't THAT good...." I'm not proud. I worked hard for the company with Martel. We put in a lot of time. And I'm sure they had a hard time following us [on the card]. We had good matches and they couldn't understand why I walked away. Well, two and two is four, I think they know now! All the things have fallen in line. I've always been opinionated but I guess I was right for what I said to you back when I talked to you in Philly.then. I guess I was right. Everyone knew where I stood. And now I think I was right all along. If not, then I'd like to hear it first hand.

Eric - I agree, Everything you said back then all came to fruition at some time.

Z - Yeah, it did.  I'm not a liar. I mean I can manipulate but I don't chose to be that way. Wrestling's a business. So much for honesty, responsibility, quality or goodwill. They complicate the business by manipulating people. Why? Because they can - because they have the stroke. And they like to play with people's lives. I'd  like to talk to Seigel. Sit him down and say "Don't you get it man, don't you get it?"

Eric- I guess he's being worked

Z - Of course he's being worked. But how naive are you?

Eric - Well this past week, over at WCW, the boys have passed a petition around in support of Vince Russo, because obviously the ax is going to come down sooner or later. And every single guy back there with the exception of one signed this petition to go to Brad Seigel. And what I said was they should pass the petition around the wrestling fans and let them sign the petition and see what kind of reaction Brad Seigel gets.

Z -  I mean, my goodness isn't that kind of kids stuff? "Let's pass around a petition and let's see what we want to do, we want to pick the coach, because he's a good guy."  C'mon, have some kahonies! I mean, I've got a chain saw. I can start it up and come down to Atlanta and go through there and cut out the dead wood. "You got  places to go? You go to Japan. C'mon DDP go to Vince. Here's your unconditional release. No more free money."  Do you think Ted Turner wanted to make millionaires out of wrestlers? God love them, that's great that they got in his pocket or whatever. But they're all going to be real sad when they close the doors. Who's going to pick it up? Crockett?  Dusty ran that into the ground. I mean Dusty, what did he do? Piss away all his money?

Eric - I hate to end this and I'd love to have you back in the next couple of weeks...

Z -  OK, let me give you a little summary here. Here's the keys and maybe you can tell Seigel. Professional management. Contracts should be based on merit and performance. They should have financial accountability, good booking and they should push real talent, not buy up used talent. Make stars. They have the power of TV, but they've never really learned how to utilize TV to create stars. I'd be glad to help them. If there is anything I can do to help WCW they can call. Johnny Ace knows my number. Taylor, Flair. I'd like to help them out, they're on the wrong track. Too bad.
 

Back to Part 1
 
 

back to main page