Message #49 (58 is last): Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:04:12 -0700 From: lctc@HOTMAIL.COM (Linda Cotter) Subject: Re: Ohboyohboy To: AZRKBA@asu.edu
Bernie,
On a personal note, you can let Mr. Falkenstine know the following:
My husband nnd I were accosted in Phoenix one evening (about 6PM) in a public parking lot (well lighted) by four individuals who wanted our truck (and who knows what else). If we had not been armed, they would have had the truck and anything else they may well have wanted. The police wereno where in sight and when we contacted them the next day all they said was, "what were you doing on that street at that time of the evening? We don't even go there after dark."
I agree with what has already been stated and is well documented, "courts have long held that the police are under no obligation to protect individual citizens."
Linda
>From: Bernie Oliver <twep@FLASH.NET>
>Reply-To: Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Arizona <AZRKBA@asu.edu>
>To: AZRKBA@asu.edu
>Subject: Re: Ohboyohboy
>Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:22:25 -0700
>
>John Falkenstine wrote:
> >
> > Ok, then using your logic, we can't go to a city park unless we have a
>gun
> > in case a potential bad guy shows up.
>
>No. You can take your chances. You may never need a gun to defend
>yourself. Many don't - some do. I don't want to be one of them that
>needs one and doesn't have one. It hurts no one if an honest person has
>one and never needs it. They aren't going to commit a crime with it.
>
>It happens that I've stopped two crimes because I did have one. The
>last time was at Park Mall in Tucson. An elderly couple (about 75 years
>old) were in the process of being abducted at knife point.
>
>Detectives later told me that the one individual had been arrested 23
>times and had 8 warrants out for their arrest. The other was wanted on
>parole violations. someone forgot to tell them that knives don't belong
>in the parking lot of Park Mall, "period". People go there to have fun
>and enjoy themselves.
>
>It should also be noted that I had to hold the two pillars of the
>community for almost 15 minutes. The police showed up about 8 minutes
>after they were called and waited another 5 minutes while deciding what
>to do. The elderly couple were quite grateful that someone had a gun to
>protect them.
>
> Maybe we just shouldn't go anywhere unless we're carrying bandoleiros
>and a machine gun, looking like some Mexican revolutionary.
>
>I suppose one can be flippant when they don't have a good defense.
>
> Again, the arguments you present are hypothetcal
> > constructions that fit your viewpoint that you have the right to carry a
>gun, no matter what.
>
>No, my argument, as you can see from the previous incident are not
>hypothetical. It's the real world, not some fantasy utopian world that
>you choose to fantasize about. I'd be happy to provide you with the
>case number if you wish. I'll also forward your email to another
>individual that has stopped bad guys twice, also.
>
> In a society such as the US this is a huge fallacy-gun
> > deaths are rampant because of the large number of guns.
>
>No, they occur because of the large number of criminals, the fact that
>when the good guy shoots the bad guy it's still counted as a homicide
>and even when the police shoot a criminal or a couple of gang-bangers or
>drug dealers shoot each other there is no differentiation.
>
> Arguments for proper gun usage as the solution are a copout because
>with the number of guns this simply will not work.
>
>Then you would have no problem with police officer giving up their
>firearms?
>
> alternate arguments that guns are needed because the
> > government is incompetent simply show an antigovernment attitude and
>again,
> > the argument is pre-tailored to fit a viewpoint.
> > Please note that I DO NOT do the same thing, i.e. If nobody has a gun
>there
> > will be no violence-There will always be crime and somebody will find a
> > weapon of some kind, even if it is a screwdriver or a kitchen knife. But
>it
> > is very difficult to go into a high school or a MacDonalds with such a
> > weapon and do massive damage. -Perhaps a Samurai sword might work. But
>it
> > can replace a weapon, which after all is designed to kill-(I think
>defense,
> > as you use it was a later concept).
>
>One of the largest mass murders in history occurred in a N.Y. disco and
>involved a gallon of gas.
>
> Another disturbing fact that I feel you
> > need to reflect on is that gun ownership breeds more ownership OUT OF
>FEAR,
> > not from the US Government or your assumed incompetent police
>department,
> > but fear for those who will use a gun to do harm to others.
>
>Please try to stay within the frame of the argument. I did not say that
>the police are incompetent - many are, some aren't. I said not to
>depend on them for your protection. They aren't able to predict the
>future and thus have no way of knowing that a crime is being committed
>unless and until someone calls them.
>
> > Also as a hypothetical arguments, since I live in a neighborhood that
>has
> > both a gun AND a drug problem: Suppose fr one day that there was a gun
> > amnesty and that EVERY gun in the neighborhood was turned in. Then I, as
>a
> > respectful citizen and my family could go for walks in the evening
> > again.....
>
>There is an amnesty and moratorium on weapons in prison. Based on your
>argument prisons should be a safe place for you and your family to go
>for walks in the evening.
>
>Bernie
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bernie Oliver <twep@flash.net>
> > To: John Falkenstine <JohnFalky@emailmsn.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: Ohboyohboy
> >
> > > John Falkenstine wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries. To build a
>hypothetical
> > > > scenario that mass murder would not have happened if they had guns
>is
> > pure
> > > > hogwash. The germans had machine guns and their social system had
> > > > discrimination against jews built into it well before Hitler came to
> > power.
> > >
> > > So your "logic" is that the Jews and anyone else of modern day, much
> > > like some rape victim's have been told, should just, "lay back and
>enjoy
> > > it."
> > >
> > > The people that founded this country were discriminated against by the
> > > social system that King George was a part of.
> > > >
> > > > And again, folks go to parks to enjoy themselves. No guns in parks.
>If a
> > gun
> > > > does show up it is easy for the cops to take care of it. That's what
> > they get paid for.
> > >
> > > Please, please tell me that you aren't that naive. The cops don't
>even
> > > know that a crime is in process until it's usually over. As a matter
>of
> > > fact there have been numerous attempts to sue the police for not
>showing
> > > up. Not once has the court ever wavered.
> > >
> > > The court has consistently ruled that the cops have no obligation to
> > > protect you, as an individual.
> > >
> > > Bernie Oliver
> > > >
> > > > You are welcome to reply.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > John Falkenstine
>
>--
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