Friday, March 6, 1998 Friday, March 6, 1998 Friday, March 6, 1998
Tuesday, March 10, 1998
Thursday, March 5, 1998 Thursday, March 5, 1998 Thursday, March 5, 1998 Thursday, March 5, 1998 Thursday, March 5, 1998 Sunday, March 8, 1998 Sunday, March 8, 1998
Wednesday, March 11, 1998 Wednesday, March 11, 1998 "Starting from a perspective of His will, is no way to breed canaries, I
think thats why He gave us intelligence and imagination ?" Any suggestions from anyone, other than watching her? Wednesday, March 11, 1998 Thursday, March 12, 1998 Thursday, March 12, 1998
Friday, May 1, 1998
Hi Marion,
Yes, I am familiar with this problem. The chicks look like they are doing fine,
growing well, and the mother is feeding a lot of egg food. Then all of a sudden
the skin turns red and the chicks all die. Not all hens will have the problem
even with the same egg food because most feed other things.
The problem is dehydration. If you feel the skin it is sticky. The cases I have
seen were the result of hens who feed a lot of egg food which was way to high in
glucose. Some chicks maybe saved if the egg food is changed, greens added to the
diet and the chicks are fostered to hens that feed a more balanced diet.
We need to question the breeder about the egg food he is using. I bet he is
adding something which is causing this. Probably sugar etc. He should not feed
any more of his current recipe and go back to the basic nestling food with hard
boiled eggs and stop adding sugar to it.
Can you call and inquiry about the egg food?
Linda Hogan
Hi Linda,
You are amazing! Is there anything you haven't heard of?
I called Dan. His nestling food is Cede and soaked seed mixed together. He feeds
romaine lettuce, sometimes carrot and sometimes extra I use Cede myself but I
have never had anything like this. I just went in and got the box because I
haven't read it for years. The 3rd. ingredient is sugar and the 4th. is honey.
Wheat flour, dried whole egg, sugar, honey, hemp seed, niger, broken whole oats,
poppy seed, yeast, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamins D3 & E, Menadione, Sodium
Bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Thiamine, Mononitrate (
Vit.B1),Riboflavin (Vit.B2), Calcium Pantothenate, Choline Chloride, Niacin,
Pyridoxine (Vit.B6), Vitamin B12, Folic Acid, Biotin, Ascorbic Acid (source of
Vit.C) Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous oxide,
zinc oxide, Iron Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Cobalt sulphate, Potassium Iodate,
L-Lysine and DL-Methionine.
It also says on the back of the box-Eggfood should constitute 1/4 of the daily
portion. then it says-prior to the 2nd. day of life we recommend not to feed
eggfood-from the 2nd. day of life 2 or 3 times per day.
I am getting confused here. Like I said I haven't read on the back of it for
ages as I have used it for some years. I just buy it and use it. This is giving
me 2nd. thoughts. I don't like to change nestling food in the middle of breeding
and since I have not had the problem I will probably go on as I am. I may change
next year. In the meantime I will watch for red chicks.
I wonder what they mean when they say not to give eggfood for the first two days
of life?
Thanks so very much. I will go call Dan now and tell him what you said.
What do you think of the ingredients in Cede?
Marion Rodgers
Hi Marion,
I think CeDe is a great nestling food. It is very high in carbohydrates and
different then Quiko, Abba Green etc. High carbohydrate foods encourage birds to
reach and stay in full breeding condition.
Does Dan add hard-boiled egg to his CeDe or does he feed quartered hard-boiled
egg? The diet described is imbalanced; it is high in carbohydrate and low
protein. If he doesn't add eggs and the hen feeds a lot of CeDe, this could be
his problem. When egg is added to CeDe, it balances the high carbohydrate and
then great results happen. Be sure he is not adding extra honey or sugar too.
I always add egg to CeDe and then I also offer 1/4 quartered hard-boiled egg the
first five days. By doing this I don't have to worry about feeding it from day
one.
Linda Hogan
Infertile Eggs
By Vicky Hartman And Linda Hogan
Tuesday, March 10, 1998
Hi Linda,
I'm about to ask you some questions that have probably been covered in all the
information you have on your site. I hope you don't mind and Please have
patience, this is my first attempt to breed canaries and I'm making myself nuts.
I have 2 pair of canaries, I will start with the pair I know is a true pair.
They laid 3 eggs. The hatch date was approaching and I found one of the eggs
broken on the cage floor. The hen had been sitting REALLY tight and now she was
off the nest so I checked the other 2 eggs and they crumbled in my fingers. So
where do I go from here? Do I have them sit out for awhile or set them up again?
The second pair-- the male has done no singing not a peep. They went nuts
building a nest. Started building before I had finished securing the nest in the
cage. The "female" started sitting in the nest right off the bat. Soon
there was 4 eggs. Now the "male" is sitting on the eggs and the
"female" acting like she couldn't care less. There has still been no
singing. I think I have 2 females but the breeder I got them from swears the
"male" was singing. The female is not feeding the sitting bird either.
What is your opinion of this situation?
I feed my birds a seed diet and CeDe. The person I ordered the CeDe from said
this is all they need. But from what I'm reading on your site that is false.
They have cuttlebone and mineral blocks too, of course. I put CeDe in the cage
everyday. Is that wrong? And I stopped feeding boiled egg on this man's advice
to. Because the CeDe is all that is needed. They really aren't eating much seed.
They just want their CeDe and I don't think that's good for them. I did mix up
some boiled seed and mixed it with wet CeDe. Should I continue that so they are
getting something else besides CeDe?
I'm getting very concerned about the health of the birds. I read all the
messages on the canary list and now the info on your site and I think that man
lead me down the wrong path to make a sale. What do you think?
I cannot begin to tell you what kind of canaries these are. I know the one that
is suppose to be a male is a red factor and the other is a cinnamon. The true
pair are a variegated red factor. Both looking very much like each other. Which
now I read is not a good thing.
So do you think you can help this really confused canary owner???? If so I say,
"God bless you".
Vicky Hartman
Hi Vicky,
In regard to the first pair you described with the broken egg, it is common for
hens to throw infertile eggs out of the nest. Likewise, the ones that broke in
your hands were not fertile either. I would leave them together but take the
nest out for a few days. High carbohydrate foods such as CeDe push the birds to
lay. Fertile eggs require the male and female to be in full breeding condition.
Feed them a seed mix that is wheat germ oil and superpreen vitamin coated. An
excellent mix is sold by Wall Seed Company here in Wichita. Call 1-800 878-2473.
Go back to a regular untreated seed mix after the second clutch of eggs is laid.
For extras feed only petamine and toasted wheat germ offered on alternate days.
When the first baby hatches offer CeDe with hard boiled egg added and 1/4 hard
boiled egg. They love to nibble on the cut edge of the yolk.
The second pair doesn't sound very promising. Again I don't think your birds are
in breeding condition. The male should feed the female and sing his mating song
while dancing around in macho fashion. Check the vents. The female vent is
rounded and swollen. The male vent during breeding season assumes a pointed
shape which protrudes forward toward the head.
I like CeDe but it needs to have hard-boiled egg added to balance its high
carbohydrate content. It should not be fed until the babies hatch.
I also recommend using poultry vitamins from January to August. Feed stores or
veterinary supply places carry them. Use 1/4 tsp to 1/2 gallon water. Change
water daily.
An excellent mineral is marketed by Abba Products. They call it mineral grit but
it is actually a completely digestible mineral. Keep it available at all times.
They do not accept credit cards but you could call them at (908) 353-0669 to
find out prices and shipping to your area.
Breeding comes naturally when be are patient and don't push our birds with rich
egg food.
Linda Hogan
Sick Hen
By Four Members Of The Canary List
Thursday, March 5, 1998
I bought two pet store hens in early December. They seemed fine for a while,
then one of them became somewhat lethargic and puffy. She napped a lot,
continued to eat very well, but she got sloppy looking, especially her face
which became pasted over. She did not have a wet nasal discharge that might
indicate a respiratory problem but her breathing seemed strained as she got
worse (when she would sit puffed up her little tail would go up and down a bit
with each breath -none of my other birds do that) Her vent was clear, but she
went thin, even though she was still eating up to an hour before she died. She
was having trouble perching and would sit in the cage bottom puffed up and head
under wing- but she would go over and eat regularly- until the very end. I had
her caged with the other hen (they had been caged together in the store), but I
separated them when it appeared that one was sick. Now the other one is starting
to exhibit the same signs- most notably the sloppy look and frequent napping all
puffed up.
Does anyone have a clue what could be wrong? Parasites? Salmonella or bacteria?
Yeast?
The droppings look normal, and her vent is clean. But I don't want to medicate
before I have an idea what the problem might be.
Thanks for any ideas.
Gregg DeChirico
Hi Linda,
I am at my wits end trying to figure out what is wrong with Gregg's birds. Do
you have any comments on it?
to refresh your memory-he had bought these birds and when he brought them home
they seemed ok. then they started puffing up and acting lethargic. One died and
then the other started showing the same symptoms. He said the faces all
"pasted up". I thought at first he meant something thick. This AM he
tells me that it is clear and all over the face and crown. I had already ask
about scaley face and snuff. It is so hard to tell what is wrong with a bird if
you can't see it. I know the birds are sick and advised him to get them away
from his other birds if he hasn't done so already. Oh yes, I did find out that
they are banded and are 97s. does it sound like a sinus infection to you, or
some other respiratory problem? Frank up at MBF told me that for some reason
people are having a problem with snuff this year and we haven't had that problem
for some years.
I know Gregg got bad birds-sick birds but I can't figure out what is wrong with
them. I keep saying birds-I guess he just has one left now. Anything you can
think of will be appreciated.
PS-From Gregg's last description it doesn't sound like snuff. I watched Frank
treat one of Velda's birds for snuff. It looked like a rough, lumped up place
and only in one location by the beak. He scraped it (which made me wince) and
then he sprayed it with F---- (can't remember the spelling). I know you have
seen it. It goes on a bright lemon color and lookd powdery on the bird. It
clings and stays there.
Marion Rodgers
Greggs bird's 'sticky' plumage must be as a consequence of either a discharge
nasally, orally OR from it's enviroment. Gregg, is it possible that the birds
are 'wetting' something in their enviroment or 'bathing' in something other than
'clean' additive free water ??
I have never seen sufficient discharge nasally to 'wet' an entire face, the
nostril usually 'clogs' long before that. Discharge from the beak would probably
be visable. This sounds like something 'external' ?? Do you add anything to the
water as a sanitiser/conditioner ?? Or could it be 'leaching' from the perches
??
Nigel
Hi Gregg,
I just had a message from Nigel that sounds quite plausible. I am getting lots
of people in on your sick hen! That is good, the more minds we can get working
on it the better!
Nigel says he believes what you call "pasted up" is coming from the
nostrils or orally and the big OR, its environment. I go along with the
discharge being either nasal or oral. It has to be.
Nigel goes on to say,"Gregg, is it possible that the birds are wetting
something in their environment or bathing in something other than clean, free
water"? Nigel says, "I have never seen sufficient discharge nasally to
wet the entire face, the nostril usually clogs long before that. This sounds
like something external. Do you add anything to the wateras a
sanitizer/conditioner?? Or could it be leaching from the perches?"
Gregg, I think there is some sound advise here. Why don't you check into the
things he mentioned? I know a man in Long Beach who puts Clorox in his bath
water and a lot of canary people put Listerine in the bath.
Let us know
Marion Rodgers
Hi Marion,
I think this is a respiratory infection but saying that leaves many options for
the cause of the problem. Mostly likely these birds were not given a good diet
that is rich in vitamins. The result was susceptibility to something. The causes
for respiratory infections include bacteria, virus, fungus or mites. With the
discharge I also would consider and irritant such as using a phenol containing
cleaning agent on the perches. This would irritate the eyes too. Any of the
infectious causes could be brought on my the stress of changing diet and
aviaries.
It is critical that all new birds and even our own birds (when they have been to
a show) be isolated from the rest when there is a potential for a new infection.
The isolation should be for at least one month.
For these birds, if they were mine I would do the following things:
Linda Hogan
Hi Linda,
Thanks so much for your advise! We will find out what is wrong with that bird
yet. I feel almost compelled to find out
Hi Gregg,
Please read Linda's answer to me on the List.
Marion Rodgers
First off, thanks ot all who responded to my post. The latest development is
that my hen seems to have turned around! Out of desperation, I finally just
treated her with antibiotic (oxytetracycline) in her drinking water, and within
3 days she is back to being perky and not puffed and mopey. She is acting normal
again. Her face is still dirty though, and I agree wiht Nigel's guess that it is
an oral discharge. I watched her rub her face on the perch a lot (before
treatment) and I think it was food dripping out of her mouth that would get all
over her face. She eats a tremendous amount and her crop must have been
overstuffed. I will keep her under careful eye and hope she pulls through. In
all the years I've kept birds (parrots and softbills) I have never had an
episode like this. Thanks to everyone, especially Marion who can finally get
some sleep now that the little gal is on the mend. Cheers
Gregg DeChirico
Hi Gregg, it sounds like an infection in the crop, and they are notoriously
difficult to cure. Scrupulous cleanliness will be required if it is, to prevent
re-infection, good luck with her Gregg.
Cocks, in condition regurgitate ALL day, as part of their conditioning. They
'slaver' food in the grooves, perches, in between their toes, all over the
place, they sling it up the walls, where their saliva goes off like
'super-glue'.
They will certainly feed hens, as will hens, feeding each other as the season
nears. It will be vital to get the disinfectant going.
all the best,
Nigel
Got A Bad Boy
By Three Members Of The Canary List
Tuesday, March 10, 1998
I'm a couple weeks behind you, Claire, but it looks like I can say
"finally", too. My roller pair have an egg in their nest, and he is
carrying on with the pursuit, unless she stands on the edge of the nest.
I watched the frenzied flights for about 45 minutes this afternoon before she
realized he would leave her alone if she stood at the nest.
Last year's birds (now gone) only had an 18X9X9 cage to move in. Now I have
built the larger 30X30X12 and they can do a lot more flying. It has to be more
healthy for them both.
Well, one egg in the nest. I wonder how many I'll get...
Heavy wet snow again today (had to cancel Parish Council Meeting); temp in low
20's - went sub-zero last night. I feel sorry for the robins who have already
shown up.
Fr. Frank E. Jindra
Hi Frank,
Re. your Rollers, from first indications I would recommend caution on your part
with the birds.
The cocks behaviour sounds very 'pushy', he may calm when the hen starts
'sitting', if he does'nt his desire to mate may cause problems. I assume you are
removing the eggs ? If he starts treading her on a nest full of eggs, they may
end up scrambled. Also, if she is too terrified to get off and feed, her
condition will be affected, and may affect her sitting. Sometimes when the hen
is reluctant to mate, in one instance the cock can knock her about so badly as
to render her unfit in 'one go'.
Frenzied flights are NOT good. In the wild canaries are generally polygamous,
and male canaries notoriously bad fathers, all this "married" &
"happy families" stuff is frankly, Frank ......well, it's (can't think
of a suitable word to convey it to a Priest !!?) but you can figure your own.
The size of the cage is irrelevent in the pursuit, more space is more effort for
her to keep away from him. It may well be necessary to remove him, anytime after
the third egg is laid would be fine.
Starting from a perspective of His will, is no way to breed canaries, I think
thats why He gave us intelligence and imagination ?
Nigel.
Thanks, Nigel. And great timing! You wrote:
"The cocks behaviour sounds very 'pushy', he may calm when the hen starts
'sitting', if he does'nt his desire to mate may cause problems.... Also, if she
is too terrified to get off and feed, her condition will be affected, and may
affect her sitting. Sometimes when the hen is reluctant to mate, in >one
instance the cock can knock her about so badly as to render her unfit in 'one
go'....
It may well be necessary to remove him, anytime after the third egg is laid
would be fine...."
I came back from a morning long meeting to find the hen on the nest with her
head under her wing. I clapped my hands & she came out from her wing. WHAT I
SAW, I DID NOT LIKE. I immediately removed the male because she was bloodied
above her beak!
She only has two eggs in the nest, but that is all the contact she will have
with him.
I agree, we have so specialized the breeding that we do need to be very careful
what happens. In the wild, this pair would probably not have been together long
enough for him to damage her like this. I'm just glad I wasn't gone for longer
than the morning hours. I left for my meeting at 10am, was home at 2pm - and she
was hurt.
I now I did right to separate them. I didn't want to move the nest to another
cage, so the male got put into a standby cage.
Sunny today, temps in the 20s, but the March sun is melting the remains of the
sidewalk snow.
Fr. Frank E. Jindra
Hi Frank,
I've been there, many times !!! There should be no problem with the hen, she
should recover o.k so long as she is'nt too badly injured. I would leave her to
quietly get on with it. If she was fit, she may well have a fertile clutch
anyway. She'll be better off without the cock. The only complication is the
second round, but we'll work through that when the time comes. Lets hope his
drive is reflected in their fertility and you get a full clutch of good eggs.
hope all goes well,
Nigel
Hi Father Frank,
Usually the hen will be ok. The worst case would be a loss in incubation
temperature.
It is good that you separated the cock from the hen. It is important to settle
this hyper boy down.
Hyperactivity can be caused by the diet. Vitamin E, Wheat germ oil, Fortified
Cod Liver Oil, hemp seed, and niger have the potential to cause this problem
when fed in excess. I prefer to feed toasted wheat germ, no more than 1/2 tsp
per bird every other day because the effect is less dramatic and easier to
control.
Feed him only water with no additives, seed mix, and small amount of greens once
a week. It will take three to four weeks to reverse his behavior.
Norwich male canaries are normally so laid back they often fail to mate even
when the hen is begging him. A little wheat germ oil will promote mating but too
much will make them so aggressive they try to kill each other!!!
Hemp will make birds more active up to a point where they are overdosed and act
lethargic. Hemp builds up in the tissue and takes at least four weeks to
decrease its effect.
Linda S. Hogan
Hi Linda,
Yes, it is the new roller pair.
She seems to be fine: eating, moving back to the nest & moving around in the
nest. I think she is going to start incubating the two eggs she has down. Maybe
I'll get a third egg today, I don't know.
The cut above her beak has cleaned up a lot. I put a pan of water in the bottom
of the cage, & she cleaned herself up well. I thought about putting some
"xenodine" - part of the betadine family - on her. I picked that up
from the local vet. He at first was recommending something with a steroid - I
said: "wait, she may still lay an egg in the morning." He said:
"okay, no steroids!"
I'm still not sure about using the xenodine. Things seem to be fine. She has
cleaned herself up, and the cut seems to have sealed itself. Leave
well-enough-alone?
Thanks for your suggestions on the diet change for him. I'll print out that list
& get the changes in place as soon as possible.
Things are looking more promising for my AS pair. She has not started nest
building yet, but if they follow the timing of the roller pair, that should
start this weekend.
I'm not sure who to set with the third hen I have. I haven't made up my mind,
since she isn't banded & I don't know what she is.
By the way, that reminds me to ask: how & where do I look for banding
supplies? As I said I have one roller pair, an AS pair, and a pedigree-unknown
hen.
Also, Nigel, thanks for your input on this. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one
to have run into this.
Cloudy today. Temps in the mid-20s (I'm being optimistic!).
Can't wait for the green to show and the snow to go.
Fr. Frank E. Jindra
Breeding Problems
By Stephen And Linda Hogan
Thursday, April 30, 1998
Dear Linda,
How are you? I hope that your breeding season is going smoother than those here
in Las Vegas. Ron and Candy are breeding lots of babies, but also loosing them
during the weaning process. I, on the other hand, am loosing just too many in
the nest. So, since I am trying to learn how to use the computer I told Ron that
I would e-mail you with some questions. In the meantime, Pezzutis have sent
three bodies of birds off to a State lab in California for necropsey. The first
look shows nothing, but they are doing cultures now. So, I'm not sure what they
still want me to ask you!
I have had everything in the world so far. Clear eggs, a little bit of dead in
shell, hens puncturing eggs with their nails, hens that only half-heartedly
feed, etc., etc. Up until last year, I had always medicated my birds before the
breeding season. In 1996 I bred 97 Glosters out of 20 pairs, and no hen had more
than two clutches. In 1997, it got close to setting up time, and I thought , oh,
the birds are healthy, so I did not medicate. I bred 42 chicks out of 30 pairs.
Then, not being a quick learner, I did the same thing this year, and things just
aren't good.
I' considering just doing the medication now, hoping that it will turn this
season around. It really can't get any worse!! What do you think of antibiotics
during the season, and which ones would you use? In some eggfood recipes I see
antibiotics listed as an ingredient, and other people have told me that it
interrupts the fertility in the males. HELP!!!!!! To make matters worse, my
Vetisulid has an expiration date of May 1, l997 on it, so if you think that
Vetisulid is the best choice, is this bottle too old?? Would LS-50 be a better
broad spectrum med. to use for this purpose? What is the shelf life of LS-50 if
it has been in the freezer? The vet that is doing Ron And Candy's necropsies
said that they should put the birds on an antibiotics and leave them on it for
the entire breeding season. Another breeder in California just told me to use
the Tetracycline from the feed store in your eggfood because chicken growers use
it for better egg production.
Any input that you could give us would be greatly appreciated. I hope that your
breeding season is going much better. I've thought of it many times, but can't
remember if I ever got the job done. Did I thank you for the copy of CANARY
TALES that you gave me in L.A? I LOVE your books and I shared that copy with a
couple in Canada. They called to tell me that it was WONDERFUL, and they were
going to take it to their club meetings up there and try to put together group
orders.
Well, let me know your feelings on all this, please.
Thanks,
Steph
Hi Steph, Ron and Candy,
Breeding season always brings challenges. I am reminded of a nursery man from
Holland who when I visited his greenhouse he was dumping a lot of sickly plants.
My reaction was he shouldn't do that but rather he should nurse each one back to
health. He turned to me and said "they don't all grow her either mamn".
So it goes each of us have challenges to overcome to breed canaries.
First of all, I do not use antibiotics on my birds. On rare occasion, I have
treated an individual but I find that saving weak birds is not a good idea in
the long run. When you inbreed for quality some of the birds are not strong and
thus must be culled from the breeding program. I also do not like to risk
developing antiboitic resistant bacteria.
My approach is to use avian-dervived probiotics. Aviguard is no longer available
so I have switched to using BeneBac made by PetAg. Call 1-800-3230877 to locate
an area source. This product contains 5 strains of Lactobacillus isolated from
birds. The Journal of Avian Veteranians recently had an article on use of this
product with Cockatiels. The article was Dr. Thomas Tully of Lousians State
University and he was able to demonstrate through a scientific study the
benefits of using this product. I add it to the egg food. It should be stored in
the freezer to preserve the Lactobacillus viability. I will be writing more and
posting the new article on my Web site.
For Dead-in-the-shell, I add 3 or 4 drops of Vanodine to the water. Also if a
hen is sitting without a male in the cage, I feed her 1/2 teaspoon of soaked
hemp. I keep a jar of hemp in water in the refrigerator and rinse it daily. The
hemp will make the hen sit tighter on the nest and stop them from desserting the
nest. If a nest of fertile eggs fails to hatch on the 14 th day, transfer the
eggs to another hen. If she has a good incubation temperature the eggs will
hatch on the 15 th afternoon. If the original hen was in top breeding condition,
her eggs should hatch on the 13th day.
I always keep 1/4 of a hard boiled egg in the cage for the hen to feed. Use a
small knife to cut the egg so that you have a sharp ridge through the yolk. The
first 5 days I only give her the hard boiled egg and a separate dish of egg
food. Chicks will probably be ready to band by the 5th or 6th day. At that time
add sprouted seed and greens. One of my favorite greens is frozen peas. Just
rinse in hot water. Frozen corn is also good.
When I talked to Ron and Candy, they were leaving their gloster babies with the
parents until about 45 days. The longer a baby canary is feed by his parents,
the harder they are to wean. Also by that age they are quite big and need more
food to keep them going. Around the 21 day, you may see the babies nibble on the
hard boiled egg or eat egg food or sprouts. Another wonderful food for weaning
babies is couscous. I use the wheat type and add 1 cup couscous to 1 cup hot
water. I also add 1 tablespoon poppy seed to it. I add the prepare couscous to
the egg food too but I do not offer it to the parents separately because they
will likely eat it instead of the egg food. When I see them take a bite, I move
to a small weaning cage. I do not put any perches in the cage initially so that
they stay on the bottom where the food is and eat. They will usually eat the
hard boiled egg. If they do, it takes very little to keep them going. The egg
food should be rich. I add wheat germ oil to it so it will be higher calorie.
I always remember my special visit with the Las Vegas Canary people. It was a
great meal and sharing you hosted for us. Candy was the perfect hostess. No one
had taken such care of me since my mother... I got hooked on mango-peach juice
that Ron shared with me.
Linda S. Hogan