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| Welcome to the exclusive interview with Paolo Sburlati! |
| Paolo Sburlati has long been one of the world's most renowed collectors of vintage instruments in the world. Residing in Italy, Paolo has been fascinated with drums for almost his entire life. His vintage collection of Ludwig drums has been documented all over the world, but most lavishly presented in Paolo's own book "Yesterday and Today: Ludwig 1909-1999", which is one of the most wonderful and impassioned drum books I have ever read. I highly suggest this book to all drummers, whether you are a fan of Ludwig drums or not. It is a MUST! I have had the pleasure of getting to know Paolo recently through my love of Ludwig drums, particularly Vistalites. Paolo was gracious enough to share a wealth of information and insight about drums and collecting in this outstanding interview. I hope you all will enjoy it as much as I enjoyed having Paolo as my guest! |
| Q: Paolo, thank you so much for joining me here for this interview. It is a real pleasure to talk to such a great guy! Paolo, I want to start a bit from the beginning and ask you what made you want to start playing drums? A: I was a kid and I've seen this huge Hollywood italian made drumkit on a TV show, Silver finish, big bass drum (belly) and two ride toms (tits) and probably that reminded me of my mom. A guitar is a fallic symbol as well as a drumkit is the "mamma"! Frankly, I always wanted to be a keyboard player and I studied Tuned Percussion and Piano at the Antonio Vivaldi Conservatory in Alessandria from 1976 to 1979, but drums at the end were the true love. Still today infact I play drums, about 100 shows a year with my cover band. I did it for 28 years so far. Time to retire! Q: Who were some of your early influences? A: In order: Doug Clifford (Creedence Clearwater Revival), Ron Bushy (Iron Butterfly), Jon Hiseman (Colosseum), Ian Paice (Deep Purple), Don Brewer (Grand Funk Railroad), John Bonham (Led Zeppelin), Carl Palmer (Emerson, Lake & Palmer), Phil Collins (Genesis), Billy Cobham (Mahavisnu Orchestra), Bill Bruford (Yes)... Q: For those who may not quite be familiar, you have one of the largest and most impressive collections of vintage drums in the world. When did you begin collecting and what is the oldest piece in your collection at this time? A: Playing all over Europe for 10 years in the 70s and 80s I was living in Switzerland and importing musical instruments from the USA cost very little. I bought lots of Fender's and Gibson's from Gruhn Guitars. I invested the money I earned playing drums that way. It was very good money in those years. Importing guitars in Switzerland was easy. There were no fax machines at that time yet and my phone bills were enormous! I had 130 pieces in my collection. Then I sold most of'em, kept 25 best axes and reinvested in drums and keyboards (all pre-MIDI stuff). The Vintage market was at the very beginning in the 70s! The oldest drum I own is a 3.5x13.5 Silver & Bell, late XIX century, or a 5x14 Ludwig & Ludwig 1910 All-Metal. Kbd? A 1968 Moog Modular IIIC. Gtr? A 1952 Fender Precision Bass and a 1955 Gibson Les Paul Junior with a matched 1955 Les Paul Amp. Also, a 1935 Richenbacher Fryin' Pan. So much old stuff... Q: Like myself, you are just a total Ludwig drums fanatic and the great majority of your collection is vintage Ludwig drums. What do you think are the key ingredients that made Ludwig stand out from all of the other great drum products and companies at that time such as Slingerland and Rogers? A: I think Ludwig stood out for a particular mixture of ingredients, but mainly 'cos the Ludwig people have always been very good business people. Rogers had a great time when Grossman handled it because he was a good business man. Ludwig had the best endorsees and this helped very much. Ringo did a lot for Ludwig. The Ludwig company invested good money in research and went to a point where they produced the best WOOD, PLASTIC and METAL shells: the Classic, Vistalite and Stainless Steel lines of drums. Nobody ever did it before and all others could only follow and imitate. All this cost too much at the end and the japs were at the door. False steps were 6 ply shells (no rings - no sound), ugly Modular hardware and leaving best endorsees take a switch. Ludwig went so down in the 80s and 90s. But to me the best american drums have always been Rogers. I was totally in love with Rogers drums when I was a kid: the look, the Swivo, Jon Hiseman's Tempest big double Silver Sparkle Rogers kit... But my first second hand kit I had the luxury to buy when I was 15 was a Ludwig double kit. There were lots of Ludwig's, no second hand Rogers drums in Torino, my home town! So I could only find Ludwig drums. It had a big sound. Later, I had several Rogers kits, but none had the sound and the power I required for my music. Q: You have made many friends over the years including several world famous drummers such as Cozy Powell and Ian Paice. In fact, you even use Ian's own custom Ludwig kit in your Deep Purple tribute band. How in the world did you come about acquiring that kit from Ian? A: I know Ian since many years, we are very good friends, as well as with Carl Palmer, Cozy Powell, Jon Hiseman, Terry Bozzio, Danny Gottlieb, Vinnie Colaiuta, Billy Cobham, Alan White, Sonny Emory, Ricky Lawson, Nicko McBrain, Bobby Rondinelli, Bill Bruford, all drummers I had the chance to organize clinics for in Italy. I visited Ian in his beautiful house in Henley, England many years ago. He showed me all of his drums in his garage. This Ludwig Hand Painted kit stood out so nice, he said it was a work of art. Infact, it has been painted by a friend of him who happened to paint the cover of the Stormbringer album. I asked him if he would sell it to me for my collection. He gave it to me on permanent loan. Five big flite cases white logoed Deep Purple - Ian Paice - London - GB have been delivered to my door a month later. As well as using it with my band, I set up this kit many times for Ian for Clinics and Shows I organize in Italy since 1995. But Ian came to a point where he did not want to use the old Ludwig kit anymore, because he feel too good on his beloved Pearl kit, so he ended up sending me another kit, the Pearl Silver Sparkle kit he used for the last years, during the 1998 Australian tour, the Japanese tour, the Concerto for Group & Orchestra 1999-2000 tour and for the Pavarotti & Friend show in Modena, Italy May 29, 2001. After the Pavarotti thing the kit remained in my garage, ready for next clinics. I usually book from 12 to 15 shows a year for Ian in Italy with my cover band. But he's so busy touring with Deep Purple. This 2002 year we only had 12 shows, I had to refuse almost 7 more shows because he wasn't available. Deep Purple still is a strong band all over the world and drummers willingly pay tickets to see Ian playing in Italy. We gonna have 7 more dates early October in Italy, then he leaves for USA where DP will record the new album. So, no more shows with Ian in Italy till next year! In the meantime I booked Carl Palmer in May with my band and Nicko McBrain in November with a good Iron Maiden cover band. More shows, more music, more Rock n'Roll!! Hope Nicko is not gonna leave his kit here after the November tour... Q: Tell me a little bit about your 60s/70s band. How long have you been playing together and is the group still active? A: I played Disco for 10 years all over Europe, I lived 8 years in Switzerland touring all european nations. Too much. I gave up in 1984. I distributed Paiste Cymbals until 1987, direct distribution from Switzerland. Nice experience which led me to work with Toomas Paiste who ended up being like a second father to me. I lost my dad this year Jan 17 while at the NAMM Show in LA and Toomas has been the most supportive person to me in those tragic days. Toomas passed away early August this year. I lost both in 6 months time. That's too much really. In 1988 I formed this band, 60/70 ROCK BAND to play the music that I like which had to be Emerson, Lake & Palmer's music. I could not find a proper kbd player for this task, but found an excellent guitarist who plays and even looks like Ritchie Blackmore and an incredible singer who sings Child In Time one third above when screaming! What kinda music do think the band ended up playing? Deep Purple's of course. At that time the word "cover band" or "tribute band" did not even exist and slowly we cut our nick in Torino and all north Italy. After 14 years at a media of 100 shows per year I think the band does really know how to play when it's on stage with Ian Paice behind the drums! I'm the manager of the band, with or without Ian on drums. But when Ian plays with my band I make much more money!! Which I regularly invest into Vintage drums. I never learn... Q: You have some Ludwig kits from the early 70s that are set up in the configuration of John Bonham's classic set-up, from maple kits, to Vistalite kits, to Stainless Steel kits. Are any of them actual authentic Bonzo-played kits? A: No, never met the man and I regret this. I had the chance in late '70s, can't remember why I was not there, but it did pass me off and then John passed away. Met John Paul Jones years after and we spent one night in Torino after his show talking about Vintage guitars and basses and showing each other pics of our guitar collections! Nice guy, indeed. A couple years ago Paul Thompson of Roxy Music got in touch with me asking me about an old Ludwig kit he owns. He was not sure but it could be Bonzo's first Maple finish Ludwig kit he had in 1969. It really is. I strongly suggest you to get in touch with him. Paul is a very, very, very nice person and he owns this incredible piece of history! That could be a scoop for your magazine. Q: I wanted to jump back and ask you about your incredible collection of the classic Ludwig Vistalite drums. How many Vistalite kits do you currently own? A: Well, one each single color and one each Pattern. At the time of the book I missed a 5 Band and a Spiral kit, but I kept buying stuff. Like I said, I never learn. About single colors I have several each, they're easier to find on the Vintage market. Bill Ludwig II told me only 50 Green Vistalite kits have been produced, because drummers did not like green. It's probably 'cos of a high percentage of daltonism in the USA. I own three Green Vistalite kits so far and this makes me think that more than 50 sets have been produced. It's always a small quantity, but for sure more than 50. The nicest Vistalite kit I own is the Tivoli 3 Band Pattern Vistalite (the ones with the lights inside) in the unusual Green-Yellow-Blue color combination Bill Cardwell sold me many years ago. He could not believe he found this kit and he rang me up rite at the hotel I was in during a music trade show in Rimini. Bill sold it to me at a ridiculous price. I'm still in debt with him for this. That's one of the few kits I'll keep for my son Thomas. Do you know Frank Pepitone? That's a SERIOUS VISTALITE COLLECTOR!! Q: Vistalite kits are still very collectable and very popular these days. Obviously, the appearance of the drums was always breathtaking, but what about the sound? How does the classic Vistalite sound hold up today? A: The Ludwig Vistalite line of drums was not successful in the '70s and Ludwig dropped it in the '80s. This also 'cos of the sound. It's boosted on the medium frequencies, it has a strong attack but sometimes it lacks in bass frequencies, it's a weird equalization. Nothing bad, you can adjust it easily on stage with a good 31 bands graphic EQ. The other problem being Vista shells are fragile. I discovered they're made out of a hygroscopic kinda material, it means it absorbs moisture. So if you store Vista drums in a keller or in a garage with a controlled amount of moisture those drums last longer and in case of falling on the floor or being bumped they do not break, they absorb the shock better. Of course, it's like glass at the end and if you hit them hard you definitely break them. Frank is much more expert than me about this, ask him. The third reason why this line did not succeed it's 'cos drummers either are showman and they DO WANT to be seen, or they're shy guy and they prefer to hide themselves behind a massive amount of drums and cymbals. Vistalite drums are definitely NOT for this second category of drummers. That's probably why Ludwig introduced the Solid White and Solid Black finish later on, but it really was too late, the Vistalite adventure was going to an end. Then Japs came on the market and Ludwig had to face more serious problems... Q: You told me that you have three complete kits of the rare green vistalites. These are, in my opinion, the most gorgeous of all the Vistalite drums. Bill Luwig Jr. claimed that only about 50 of these kits were manufactured but there does seem to be a few more floating around than that. Have you ever come across instances of people doctoring up fake Vistalites? A: Bill II told me about the 50 Green Vista kits only made years ago at a NAMM show, while I was recording informations for my book. He said it was a scoop for my book, as well as he said he once found his dad sitting on a Ludwig seamless Supraphonic shell in his office, bacuase he discovered that slightly out of round metal shells were sounding better than perfectly round metal shells. It's probably true. It could be that an oval shell produces less strong harmonics, because vibrations do not find an ideal resonating body, so they do not build up and the sound is more controlled and appears to sound better to the human ear. It's like the sweet distortion of a tube in an amp. Tubes do not clip like transistors, and this sounds mellow to the human ear, thus more acceptable. The distortion you get from a transistor may damage your ears. A small radio has a 4 watts speaker, if you crank it up you can get near it! The distortion and the clipping is so bad that it fisically hurts. A 100 watt tube Marshall amp put at full volume does not kill you. Anyway, a Ludwig shell which is not perfectly round could sound better than a round shell, alrite. We're talking a few millimeters. This he said was another scoop for my book. About fake Vistalites: I do not know if somebody is so good to produce fake Vistalite shells. It's possible, you only need an oven (like a pizza oven) and a form to wrap the plexiglass around when it gets soft in the oven. Then you cut and glue it. It's not difficult, but this acrylic material costs very much, almost in Europe and I don't know if that's worth producing fake Vistalite shells. Fibes produces great transparent shells as well, if you break an original Ludwig Vista shell you can buy a Fibes shell and it's like the Ludwig one, a bit thicker I'm been told. So, what kinda market would it be producing fake Vista shells? It would be much better to produce them and let all Vintage collectors know it! I think Frank knows these facts much better than I do. He owns unbelievable color combinations in all the Ludwig Vistalite Patterns possible. And if he's one of the fake Vista shells maker on earth: well, my compliments Frank. You're the best one!! Q: I am sure you probably own or at least have played a set of the new 2001 modern Vistalite reissues. How do they compare to the original Vistalites? A: I have seen the first New Ludwig Vistalite kit displayed at the Ludwig booth at the NAMM show in LA years ago. Very well made. Never bought one. I want the originals. I happened to meet Adam Cartagena, this young guy who produces those acrylic shells the New Ludwig Vistalites are made with. I think he did a great work and he produces shells in many more different colors and with strange effects in the plastic mixture. Great stuff! But seems the New Ludwig Vistalite line of drums did not catch up very much, maybe for the same old reasons. It's just for collectors. Frankly, I only bought a brand new Ludwig kit in my life, many many years ago, a Rock Power kit 2-24, 10x14, 12x15, 16x18 and 18x20, then I added 8x12 and 9x13 in order to have the complete range. It was 1979 and in the recording studios in Europe they wanted a modern sound. That was the one and only brand new drumkit I ever bought in my life. Anything else was pure second-hand! Q: Is it true that you are actually clearing out some of your own collection right now? A: Yes, what am I gonna do with all this stuff after all? I owned'em all, I played'em all, I took pics, did a book, I enjoyed'em all, now they have to go and make music. When I was collecting guitars I happened to meet John McLaughlin, founder of the Mahavisnu Orchestra together with Billy Cobham. He was in Milano recording with Danny Gottlieb, I booked a few clinics for Danny and went picking him up there in the studio. I see these beautiful guitars John had in the studio, all Vintage stuff. We started talkin' Vintage guitars of course and he asked me if I play my guitars. I said no. He said they get worst year after year if nobody plays them. So I sold most of my guitars and reinvested into Vintage drums which I do play! Rite today I'm been visited here in my house by Jim Derogatis who happens to write for the Chicago Sun Time newspaper and the Modern Drummer magazine. He will write an article for MD about my drum collection and he's seen all the drums stored in my three garages. Even though I already sold part of my collection, other drums arrived in the last years, so the amount is always constant. I never learn... Q: What would you say is the most kits or drums that you have owned at one time? A: I do not know, really. When I find something interesting on ebay I buy it. It could be a vintage Ludwig drumkit or a Rogers Dyna-Sonic or a Minimoog. I collect Vintage kbds as well. I have all pre-MIDI stuff, old Moog Modulars (among which a big Moog IIIC which belonged to film score italian composer Ennio Morricone), 3 Minimoogs, Multimoog, Polymoog, ARP 2600, Odyssey, Oberheims, Mellotron, Yamaha CS-80, Hammond B3, Fender Rhodes, Hohner Clavinet, Roland Modular System 100M, Korg stuff... I love kbds. I found it easy to meet people selling Vintage stuff thru ebay. Most of the drums I buy is off auctions, or after the auction closes and the reserve price has not been met. Ebay is a good source for buyers who wanna invest money into Vintage stuff. It helps in meeting sellers and exchance vintage lists. Q: You produced a beautiful book in 1999 to document the 90th anniversary of Ludwig in which you displayed photos of many of your collectibles. I own this incredible book and it fueled my love of Ludwig drums even more and really opened my eyes to Vistalites, Stainless Steel, Octaplus, etc... How long did it take you to put this book together? A: I took me two months to set up black curtains, lights, set up each representative kit, clean it, set the lights, take five shots each, tear it down, another set up... I wanted to recreate the yellowish pics of the 60s in order not to have a book lookin' like the last new Yamaha catalog. It had to be Vintage in the pics too. Then I scanned each slide and that was the most difficult part, because if you scan a photograph you will never have the definition you need to print a book, if you scan a slide you will never find a slide scanner good enough to give you the rite colors you see when you watch the slide in the sunlight. It's always a compromise. I used a $ 5,000 Polaroid scanner a friend o'mine importer loaned me. The maximum result is what you see in the book. Red and Green are the most difficult colors to get thru a slide scanner. Then I composed the pages, I used Quark Xpress programm, I enjoyed so much doin' it! I had masks with all these open windows and in each I could put a pic. I chose all necessary pics of drumkits, snare drums and details from all the ones I scanned and assembled each page. A great experience. This took me another solid month. Pics and pages work was done beginning 1998. Then I wrote the text. It took me another two months, I did it during summer holidays in 1998. I wrote the text in english and I translated it in italian. Should have I done viceversa it would have been more difficult for me, because when I write in english I write short phrases like I'm doin' now and translating in italian is easy. When I write in italian language I can write a very long phrase which will become a nightmare of work translating it in english. In this case I would of course cut the italian phrase in shorter english phrases givin' the same meaning at the end, but it's a longer work and I wanted each phrase to be complete and exact in english as well as in italian. You can compare the two text in the book, you see lenght and number of phrases are the same. My good friend Renč Rochat read it all and correct the enormous quantity of mistakes I did. Thank you once more Renč! The idea was to tell the Ludwig story and evolution and let the reader see it thru the pics. Also, should a collector need to know about Transition badge Ludwig drums for instance he must know where to go instead than searching all thru the book. It's easy with a pic. Why did I include the italian text? Because my italian friends and drummers mostly do not speak english. I did it willingly. Q: Are there any plans to do another book in the near future? A: I wanted to write the Paiste book and the title had to be "Paiste - A family story". When I presented my Ludwig book to Toomas Paiste and I asked him to write the Paiste book he said: "Why do you wanna do it?" The first answer that came to my mind was "Because I always played Ludwig and Paiste on stage all my life and this is probably my way to thank you." He said "We will start in October". He wanted me to interwiev his mother Lilla in Hamburg, Germany. She knows all the story of the Paiste family since their birth in Estonia, early XX century and all its evolution thru Europe, in Poland, then Germany, then Switzerland. But one day Toomas' daughter Irina came back to the factory and wanted to enter the company and work for his family and she decided to write the book of her family. So Toomas asked me to pass all the informations I had to Irina. I do really hope this book will be out in the near future, even though Toomas will never see it. Q: Paolo, I want to sincerely thank you for your time to do this great interview, and I want to wrap up here by asking you if there is any one drum or kit, Ludwig or not, that has eluded you and you are still looking to acquire? A: Collections are never complete, because it's the collector who decides how his collection is gonna be confined. I decided to collect Ludwig drums ONLY, which is already an enormous task! So, at the end I decided to confine my collection to the most representative kits and snare drums, the finishes, whatever. Glad I did it, so I could write the book. I know collectors who only collects Oyster Black kits, or Vistalite kits, or small size Gretsch kits, or Black Beauties only. I also collect kbds and I decided they must all be pre-MIDI. One sample each synth! But there are different versions ARP Odyssey, different issues of Minimoogs. So you see, you decide where's your limit. In any case your collection will never be complete, because you will always miss a Vistalite kit or a Black Beauty, you can't buy'em all! Now I'm interested in WFL drums, but only specific finishes. My friend Mike Curotto collects all Ludwig & Ludwig Black Beuaties possible, he probably has ANY possible kinda BB made on earth, but he also likes Slingerland, Leedy and other stuff. So a collection is never complete. An enormous collection can be made of small collections of several type of instruments... it's how you shape it. I like Rogers drums as well, should I find a nice Rogers Koa finish Ultra Power 7 I'd buy it. It must be 2-24, 13, 14, 16, 18 like the one in the Rogers catalog 1973. I do not like 8x12 toms, too small. As well as 18x20 is too large. It depends. Buying is funny, because it gives you the opportunity to get what you miss when you were a kid. Collecting is a bug, a sickness, a nevrosis, for sure it's not something sane! It means you missed something during childhood days. That's why I'm selling everything now. I'll only keep the best ones for my work with my band. I wanna thank you so much for givin' me this great opportunity to be featured in your magazine or in your website. It's a honor for me. Your work is important for the drummers community on earth. Thank you for doin' it. Ciao! |
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