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Conservation and Restoration (7 April 2000)
I'm an undergraduate student at an American university. I've visited your many pages on Egyptology and I think they are very good. I'd like to bring up a subject that I don't have very clear in my mind. In some books and on TV I see that much work is going on to ensure the adequate conservation of ancient Egyptian monuments and artefacts. In others I read that they are involved in the restoration of a tomb or a temple, I know it's two different things, but which one is best? Or do they go together? What are the current views on this?
Dave (davzsig@yahoo.com)
Re: Conservation and Restoration (9 April 2000)
Dave, you just stumbled on a very great problem in archaeology and egyptology. People want to see objects and monuments in all their original beauty and glory, but if they have suffered damage over the millennia, should they be restored to their full splendour? I think definitely NOT, because restorers in most cases have to guess or invent (it doesn't matter how professional they are and how closely they try to reproduce the original) the features that have been damaged or disappeared and we can never be sure if that's the original way the object or building was conceived. Restoration is in fact falsifying the ancient work of art and should be avoided. What is really required is conservation by which all the modern techniques that technology has produced, are used to prevent further decay as much as possible. In a nutshell, that's the problem, IMHO.
Sincerely,
Jimmy (jimmyspa@my-deja.com)
Re: Conservation and Restoration (11 April 2000)
I agree with the above. In fact, in the case of Egypt and no doubt it must be the same elsewhere, government officials are mainly concerned about tourism that brings the money they need for their budgets so they can stay in office, and tourists want to see beautiful things, not cracked artifacts with parts missing or monuments that resemble 3D puzzles after an earthquake, so in order to please them they sometimes do instead of the required conservation, daring restorations that often are so crude even the untrained eye can detect the forgery, because that's what it ends up being.
It is simply outrageous and should be stopped. Look what they did to the sphinx in Giza a few years ago, they put cement to fill the gaps and cracks and the difference between the original stone and the modern cement contracting and expanding differently under the blazing sun or the chilly nights in the desert, caused more harm than good, they had to do urgent work to save the crumbling monument. But I reckon it would be very difficult to tell them so, after all, they own it all and probably take with suspicion remarks by foreigners who took so much away, still I've been told that even people there are complaining about these practices. Let's hope it changes their attitude.
Luis Suárez (luis-suarez@bigfoot.com)
Re: Conservation and Restoration (21 April 2000)
I can tell you a similar story that has to do with the crazy urge some people have in Egypt to restore things at any cost. I visited Egypt about eight months ago and I wanted to see places I hadn't seen before, less crowded, if you know what I mean. So, I made my way to Abusir so I could see those pyramids I'd been told were in quite bad condition. In one of the funerary temples there (with garbage everywhere from tourists that nobody seems to collect and dispose of) I saw a column that had been "restored" with cement, just like they had done to the Giza sphinx, so you can imagine how long will this last. Maybe in a few years there won't be any column left, just a pile of debris... It seems that since few people bother to visit this site, nobody has noticed (or cares) about what someone did to the poor ruins.
J. Rosas (jurosas@my-deja.com)
Arquitectura egipcia (5 de Mayo de 2000)
A raíz de un trabajo para la facultad, estudio Arquitectura en la Universidad de Buenos Aires, para la materia Historia, comencé a buscar información sobre la cultura de Egipto, con especial énfasis en su arquitectura y encontré la página diseñada por ustedes. Por tal motivo decidí escribirles y tomarme el atrevimiento de solicitarles, en el caso de que les interese, tengan la molestia de enviarme información sobre este tema, ya que me es bastante difícil encontrarlo en la red. Muchas Gracias.
Dolores Ruiz (doloresruiz@fibertel.com.ar)
Re: Arquitectura egipcia (6 de Mayo de 2000)
Creo que hallarás los datos que buscas en la siguiente página:
Hay entre los trabajos publicados allí uno precisamente sobre el tema de la arquitectura.
Luis Vignolo (luisvignolo@yahoo.com)
Comentarios (15 de Mayo de 2000)
Difícilmente puede uno creer en la "popularizacion" de un tema, en América Latina escribiendo en inglés... Desde Colombia saludos por nuestra mutua afición.
Cordialmente:
Jorge H. Martínez johemase@avan.net
NOTA DEL MODERADOR: Comprendemos su molestia por nuestras páginas en inglés, que otros han expresado tembién, pero el mundo va más allá de América Latina, siendo nuestra intención entablar un diálogo auténticamente internacional. De modo que al ser el idioma predominante en Internet por amplio margen, el inglés, que también es el lenguaje internacional de los viajeros y los negocios, es natural que aunque incluimos numerosas páginas en castellano, la principal y otras estén en ese idioma, para que podamos llegar al mayor número posible de personas. Si visita Ud. el vínculo de estadísticas de visitantes en nuestra página principal, comprobará que esta política nos ha permitido tener visitantes de más de 60 países quienes ahora saben que en Uruguay existe y se estudia la egiptología.
Comercio y maquillaje (20 de Mayo de 2000)
Hola:
Mi nombre es Alberto y me interesaría saber la forma como se comercializaba en el antiguo Egipto, es decir qué cosas intercambiaban por otras, quienes se maquillaban y cómo conseguían el maquillaje. Gracias.
Alberto Burneo albertoburneo@yahoo.com.mx
Re: Comercio y maquillaje (23 de Mayo de 2000)
El comercio en el antiguo Egipto hasta una época muy tardía no usó la moneda, que se introdujo en la Baja Época al hacerse universal su circulación en el Cercano Oriente. Anteriormente en Egipto todo se vendía o compraba en base al trueque, o sea, se acordaba que una vaca, por ejemplo, valía igual que 25 piezas de cerámica y así se intercambiaban las cosas. Como referencia cuando no se quería efectuar tal cambio directo, se usaba el peso de cobre u oro, si una vaca valía tantos gramos de oro, por ejemplo, se podía cambiar por otros objetos cuyo valor de referencia respecto al oro fuera el mismo. Si bien conceptos como el de inflación y otros similares no podían tener curso en el antiguo Egipto con su sistema económico no-monetario, los precios de las cosas variaban por otras circunstancias políticas o económicas y eran distintos para diferentes épocas.
El maquillaje en el antiguo Egipto, usado por hombres y mujeres, consistía en sustancias minerales (galena, malaquita, etc.) que se molían y mezclaban con aceites u otros productos para aplicarlos al rostro. Se usaban desde la prehistoria, como lo atestiguan las numerosas paletas de piedra sobre las que se molían los minerales, halladas en tumbas de esa época.
Espero que esta información sea útil.
Ramtis ramtis@my-deja.com
Necesito información sobre las antiguas familias de Egipto (13 de Junio de 2000)
Soy la mamá de un adolescente que necesita información de la forma en que estaban conformadas las familias en la antigüedad en Egipto. He recorrido todas o casi todas las páginas que he podido en Internet y no he podido encontrar la información que buscamos, supongo que tendrán dicha información, los papeles que jugaban cada uno, si eran poli o monoteistas como así también si eran poli o monogámicos, si eran patriarcados o matriarcados y toda la información que tengan sobre esto. Desde ya muchísimas gracias. Ojalá que revisen la página hoy, ya que esta información la necesita para mañana 14 de junio. Otra vez gracias.
Laura Bo (lauritabo@hotmail.com)
NOTA DEL MODERADOR - Lamento que hayan esperado hasta último momento, pero procuraré contestar de apuro. Las familias eran en general monógamas, excepto el rey que podía tener un harén pues era un dios y era importante que tuviera una descendencia abundante para que de ella surgiera su sucesor, importante en una época en que la mortalidad era alta y la expectativa de vida corta. Eran politeistas, adoraban a muchos dioses. Si bien los hombres de hecho tenían más poder que las mujeres, los derechos que estas últimas gozaban eran mayores que en toda la región en esa época, podían heredar, tener su propio patrimonio, si había divorcio, retenían sus bienes y la dote. No había matrimonio oficial, era una unión libre refrendada para fines legales por testigos en caso de necesidad. Hubo varias reinas mujeres (faraonas) ya desde los orígenes de esa civilización. En las representaciones hombres y mujeres, marido y mujer, eran representados en un plano de igualdad, junto a sus hijos o solos, la mujer pasando a menudo un brazo familiarmente sobre los hombros de su esposo. Espero que esto les sirva.
Good and bad books on ancient Egypt (25 June 2000)
I'm posting this because I'm very interested in ancient Egypt and I buy as often as I can books on this subject. I've noticed that many are very useful, mostly those by well established names of people who work and teach at prestigious institutions. But I've often bought other books (and I've watched films produced for TV) in which some people who claim authority on the subject, although I'm not familiar with their names, say things that disagree with what I read in the former kind of literature, usually quite startling supposedly new discoveries, suppressed, so they say, by the academics. This confuses me and I don't know what to believe since I like to keep an open mind on everything. Is there a way we laymen can detect what is acceptable and what isn't? I don't like to accept general and poorly substantiated refutations of ideas that seem reasonable enough, but on the other hand, I don't want due to my basic ignorance on this subject to appear as believing (and passing on, which is worse) views that may prove to be far-fetched and unreliable. I'd like to hear comments on the subject from anybody in this Forum. Thanks for your time.
Henry Slater (henslater@yahoo.co.uk)
Re: Good and bad books on ancient Egypt (28 June 2000)
Well, Henry, welcome to the club ! I'm sure many of us share your anxiety when so many hundreds of new publications on ancient Egypt are published every year all over the world. I myself go by the author and the institution he or she belongs, whether it's an accredited university or institution or not, but since people who don't belong to such can still come up with acceptable discoveries, ideas or views, we should have some kind of guidelines to assess what we are being told. One good example of such, beyond what I could tell you, is something that a prominent scientific writer said some time ago. I'm posting it below:
Carl Sagan's
Baloney Detection Kit
Based on the book "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a candle in the dark" published by Headline 1996.
The following are suggested as tools for testing arguments and detecting fallacious or fraudulent arguments:
•Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts •Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view. •Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities"). •Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy. •Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours. •Quantify, wherever possible. •If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work. •"Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler. •Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, it is testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?
Additional issues are:
•Conduct control experiments - especially "double blind" experiments where the person taking measurements is not aware of the test and control subjects. •Check for confounding factors - separate the variables.
Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric:
•Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument. •Argument from "authority". •Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavourable" decision). •Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). •Special pleading (typically referring to god's will). •Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased). •Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses). •Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes). •Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!) •Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not "proved"). •Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down. •Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect. •Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?). •Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is). •Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle ("why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?"). •Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile). •Confusion of correlation and causation. •Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack.. •Suppressed evidence or half-truths. •Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as "police action" to get around limitations on Presidential powers. "An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public".
Perhaps these concepts will be useful when you doubt whether anything you read or hear is legitimate scientific or other thinking or "something else"... which in Egyptology, unfortunately is plentiful as some people hungry for fame and recognition dabble in subjects they hardly know anything about.
Egiptología Sudamericana (18 de Julio de 2000)
Encontré hace poco unas páginas argentinas de egiptología donde, entre otras cosas, se proporcionan datos sobre la egiptología sudamericana, para acceder a esta información, hay que ir al siguiente sitio:
AMIGOS DE LA EGIPTOLOGÍA DE ARGENTINA
Esta gente ha puesto aquí datos sobre las colecciones del Museo de La Plata en Argentina y muchos otros datos de interés que no se encuentran en otros lados. Intentan emular a la Asociación homónima de España y creo que lo hacen sin copiarles su estilo pero manteniendo la tradición de establecer vínculos entre instituciones afines y proporcionar información útil a los navegantes de ese mar agitado que es Internet.
Luis Suárez (luis-suarez@bigfoot.com)
Muy buena página sobre Amarna - Very good Amarna Page (2 August 2000)
I would like to suggest to those interested in the fascinating Amarna Period of ancient Egypt to visit the link given below which has a collection of very interesting pictures of the main characters and their city.
Quiero sugerir a todos aquellos interesados en el fascinante período de Amarna del antiguo Egipto, que visiten una página muy interesante con excelentes fotos de los personajes principales y de su ciudad, el enlace es el siguiente:
AMARNA PICTURES - IMÁGENES DE AMARNA
Alfie (alfie5198@my-deja.com)
Dear Sir or Madam, (25 August 2000)
I'm looking for translated texts (in English or Dutch) from original documents, concerning the daily life in Ancient Egypt.
Do you know any books and authors where I can find this information?.
Thank you in advance.
Respectfully,
Ingrid Van Bogaert ingrid.vanbogaert@pandora.be
Antwerp, Belgium
NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Actually there are hundreds of such books, but you could do well by starting with:
- PRITCHARD, "Ancient Near Eastern Texts" (ANET).
- TYLDESLEY, "Daughters of Isis" (mainly about women).
- LICHTHEIM, "Ancient Egyptian Literature", ( 3 Vols.).
- MANNICHE, "Sexual life in ancient Egypt".
All can be found in any good library. These will get you going and from the bibliography quoted in them you can undertake other readings.
Para información (5 de Setiembre de 2000)
Mi nombre es Viria Solís, soy de Costa Rica, estudié psicología, razón por la cual desconozco muchísimo de la cultura e historia egipcia, sin embargo, por motivos personales, estoy muy interesada en tratar de obtener información de un pueblo antiguo llamado: Carmaneo, o los carmaneos. Si ustedes tienen alguna informacion sobre donde puedo obtener libros o lecturas sobre este pueblo, se lo agradeceré infinitamente.
Muchas gracias.
Viria Solís vmsolis@cariari.ucr.ac.cr
NOTA DEL MODERADOR - Jamás he visto nada sobre tal pueblo mencionado como teniendo nada que ver con Egipto, pero quizás algún otro lector de este Foro pueda ayudarla.
EGYPTOLOGY (24 September 2000)
Hi, I'm a student at a Florida (USA) university and I'd like to share some thoughts on Egyptology. I'll appreciate comments from any of you.
Egyptology
First Discipline Report
My Thoughts: It appears to me that Egyptology, while it is a distinctively specific discipline, owes its birth to Archaeology. In fact, its existence as a separate academic discipline was made legitimate by the foundation of linguistic understanding, through the discovery and hieroglyphic translation of the Rosetta stone, which forever set it apart from the generic archaeological study of the physical place Egypt. Hence, once the written history of the people could be read, comprehended, and interpreted Egyptology became an individual field of social science with unlimited sub-fields or specifications.
A. Definition(s) of Egyptology
According to The World Book Encyclopedia: The study of ancient Egypt is called Egyptology, and experts in the field are Egyptologists (144).
According to Prof. Juan J. Castillos, Director of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology: "definitions can vary but I would define Egyptology as a specialized branch of History of a regional nature that deals with Egypt’s past, from the earliest times to the end of the Byzantine Empire’s rule in the country, in the 7th Century AD. This subject encompasses ancient Egyptian history, archaeology, the language and all the manifestations of that civilization". (Castillos, Prof. Juan J., Online E-mail. 17 Sept. 2000.)
Egyptology is the study of ancient Egyptian society through the perspective of various social disciplines in order to understand such social phenomena as religious beliefs, government structures, literature and art, education (including law and medicine), economics, etc. (Author)
B. Objects of Study Examined
Much of their [Egyptologists] knowledge comes from studying the architecture and other arts of ancient Egypt. Excavations of pharaohs’ tombs, … (World Book Encyclopedia 144).
The 1,000 or so Egyptologists cover fields such as language, literature, history, religion, art, which for the modern world would be separate. Sadly, original work in Egyptology has become an almost exclusively academic pursuit. … activity in Egypt is a small part of the total work… there is often surprisingly little contact between the field and the study. (Baines and Malek 29)
C. Problems/Questions Approached
Egyptologists, while unearthing mummies or studying the Pyramids, are concerned not only with dating these objects accurately within their historical time periods, but may seek to solve such sociological questions as; “What prompted the ancient Egyptians to build such monuments?” “Were they objects of civic pride, like statues in modern day public parks or did they serve as religious works, attempts to gain closeness to mythical gods?” “Could they have been political or military statements proclaiming Egypt’s dominance over prospective enemies?” Or, “Why was such care taken in the mummification and burial, within Pyramid tombs, of some while others’ remains were less cared for?” The Egyptologist may ask: “Was such special care and artistry preserved for a certain economic or social class of people?” “How does such an economically based theory relate to the masses of ancient Egyptian citizens?” “How would the common person feel, in ancient times, as s/he gazed at the great monuments?” Bratton has suggested such monuments, as the Pyramids, may have been statements proclaiming: The basic belief of the ancient Egyptians and the conviction around which all else grew was the changelessness of the universe. Everything in their environment pointed to the one consistent fact that the world was static, and with that observation went the further conviction that changelessness was the only real and unchangeable truth. (19-21).
If this was the case, one can only wonder then if the every day Egyptian, the laborer, the lower class citizen would have felt limited, challenged, or content with his or her “static” social position within such a hierarchical structure. “Did the working class Egyptians really ponder the state of the universe or was s/he more concerned with earning a living as most of humanity is today?” Is it fair for us today, out of our fascination with the geometric accomplishments of the ancient Egyptians, to stamp a cultural cliché on every ancient Egyptian as someone obsessed with the physical sciences? I think Egyptologists try to find answers to how ancient Egyptians interacted with one another socially in order to understand how the modern world interacts socially. Perhaps Egyptologists, like other social scientists, seek to use ancient Egyptian society as a gauge in which they compare and contrast our own social structures today. (Homepage of Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology) If Bratton’s theory is correct, the ancient Egyptians may have anticipated that someday we would be asking the same questions about them as they perhaps imagined about us, and therefore strove to preserve their societal history.
D. Glossary of Key Terms
Rosetta stone - (Discovered in 1799, this is the first word in Egyptology because it provided Jean Francois Champollion with the means to break into the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic language. Both the Greek and hieroglyphic writings were on the same piece of stone so he was then able to translate from Greek to Egyptian.)
Hieroglyphs - Signs in the Egyptian script, from Greek “sacred carving”; used only for the monumental form of the script, in which most signs are identifiable pictures, and no signs are joined together. (Baines and Malek 226) This form of writing is believed “to be paralleled by the Babylonian cuneiform and also the Chinese writing.” (Bratton 47).
Papyrus - A plant material used to write on in ancient Egypt. Sheets were made by cutting the pith of the plant into strips laid in rows horizontally and vertically, which were then beaten together, activating the plant’s natural starch to form an adhesive. Separate sheets were gummed together to form rolls. (Baines and Malek 227).
Phonogram - Sign in the script that records a sound. Only consonants are precisely recorded, and phonograms may write 1-4 consonants. (Baines and Malek 227).
Coptic - Comparing it to Italian in relation to Latin, Bratton describes this dialect as a combination of the Demotic writing, introduced around 800 B.C. for mostly commercial and public documentation, in which it was a “modification” of the ancient hieroglyphic style combined with letters of the Greek alphabet. (47) This language is still used today in the Coptic Orthodox Church throughout the world.
E. Sub-fields/Specializations
Some Egyptologists may concentrate their efforts on specific eras of ancient Egypt’s civilization from the earliest known time periods up to 642 A.D. Still, some may specialize in certain areas of interest such as religion of the Egyptians or medical practices, etc. I found that almost anything one could study about a culture or society in the present day, modern technological advances excluded, someone has or is studying that subject through the perspective of the ancient Egyptian.
According to O’Connor, “Egyptologists have produced an exceptionally fine data base in philological, historical, religious and literary studies, in art history, and…in archaeology.” (17).
F. Works Cited
“Ancient Egypt: Mankind’s Wonderful Heritage.” Gateway to Uruguayan Egyptology. Home page. Prof. Juan Jose Castillos, Director of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology. 27 Jul. 1998 http://members.spree.com/juancast/
Baines, John, and Jaromir Malek. Atlas of Ancient Egypt. New York: Facts on File, Inc., 1980.
Bratton, F. Gladstone. A History of Egyptian Archaeology. London: Robert Hale, 1967.
Castillos, Prof. Juan Jose. “Re: HELP!” E-mail to Sara Megala. 17 Sept. 2000.
Lesko, Leonard H. “Egypt, Ancient.” The World Book Encyclopedia. 2000 ed.
O’Connor, David. Anthropology and Egyptology. Ed. Judith Lustig. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1997.
Sara Megala ALEXANDRIASON@aol.com
Florida, USA
Re: EGYPTOLOGY (19 October 2000)
You wrote: "Much of their [Egyptologists] knowledge comes from studying the architecture and other arts of ancient Egypt. Excavations of pharaohs’ tombs, … (World Book Encyclopedia 144)."
On the other hand, I think that too much attention has been devoted to the study of the tombs of kings and other high officials but modern trends in archaeology focus mainly on the tombs (and dwellings) of the poor, anonymous peasants and their humble possessions because beyond the beauty of the objects and the architecture, the true history of the people they are studying comes from the areas where these commoners went about their daily lives. I think this is a significant shift in methodological thinking that is leading to a much more accurate understanding of ancient cultures.
Julio jurosas@my-deja.com
Grupos de discusión en castellano (8 de Noviembre de 2000)
Quiero compartir con aquellos a quienes les pueda interesar la dirección de Internet de algunos grupos de discusión sobre el antiguo Egipto y temas relacionados (historia, antropología). Para suscribirse y leer los mensajes y participar de las discusiones, si así lo desean, las direcciones son:
Suscribirse con Email aquí (Lista de Amigos de la Egiptología)
http://www.egroups.com/list/egiptologia
http://www.egroups.com/group/historia_general
http://www.egroups.com/group/antropologia-ucv
Es mucho lo que se puede aportar o aprender participando en ellos. Procuraré ubicar otros para que los interesados puedan vincularse a ellos.
Saúl Linares, Montevideo
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