From ???@??? Wed Dec 30 06:48:17 1998
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Fw: Debates or ads? It's our choice.
From: Alain St.Jacques
Masonry come with some Secrets and in today medium we may want to call
privacy.
We talk about it with some caution to who or even if this Bros is recognized
by your Grand Lodge,
I know we share a multitude of similarity but what make Masonry so unique it
is because we do not talk about
what we share in lodge... There is a lot on the internet for everyone to
satisfy their curiosity, If you feel the Bros don't want to share with you
, well you are wrong, We do in our lodge and we should keep there, Masonry
has survived over 2000 years and more through war, politic, religion and
will find it way to the future because we are private about it.
Thanks
From ???@??? Wed Dec 30 07:00:38 1998
From: alberto vallini
Hallo dear brothers,
if the attitude is the one highlighted in this email (scroll down) I highly
suggest to unsubscribe: it is useless to subscribe to a list devoted to
Free-Masonry if you don't feel like discussing about Free-Masonry. As far as
i am
concerned i belong to the official Free-Masonry of italy (Grande Oriente d'
Italia), which is the main masonic family in italy.
Please: if you don't want to discuss about Free-Masonry, unsubscribe: i am
about
to set this list moderated: or you post subject for discussion or in a few
days
I will unsubscribe anyone who will post ads or similar: an emailing list is
for
discussion and debating. otherways you don't need to subscribe: it is preferred a
list
with 2 subscribers who talks than a list like ours, with 45 all around the
words who are afraid of the shadows.
(*** pasted email unquoted ***)
From ???@??? Fri Jan 01 11:49:40 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Fw: Debates or ads? It's our choice.
From: JC LANOT
Hello all,
I have just subscribed to the list and this is my first posting.
As an answer to the moderator's message I would like to
say that I have not subscribed to use the list for commercial purposes.
Although I am a little reluctant about masonry and
Internet because of the lack of discretion
(not to say secret which is rather hard to find...
even in our Temples !)
I think the main point in joining an international
list is to have the opportunity to discuss with Bros from other countries,
who may have a different way of practising Masonry and,
whom you would never have met otherwise. Is it not precisely one of the aims of Masonry ?
I also think that it may help us go past the barriers put by official and unrecognised Lodges.
I belong to the Grande Loge de France which is not recognised by the Grand Lodge of England.
But I wish, as a simple Bro, to be able to make relatioships with all Bros from all Lodges.
What do the list members think about that ?
Fraternally
From ???@??? Fri Jan 01 13:33:33 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Fw: Debates or ads? It's our choice.
From: alberto vallini
Hallo Bro Lanot,
As far as the matter of recognition is concerned, The Grand Lodge of
England is
one of the most important masinc families all around the world, at least
because it is there that in 1717 the speculative free Masonry was officaly
established, so it is always sad when recognition is refused just by England.
If it can be consolatory we also have a strange situation here in italy. The
main masonic family, which actually is what we are referring to as masonry
when in Italy, is the family I belong too also, which is the Grande oriente d'
Italia. The situation looks deceptive: we have also another masonic family
named Grande Oriente Italiano (slight difference in terms) which is not,
anyway, the official Free-Masonry, so to say. The Grande Oriente d' Italia
(GOI)
was involved with a scission (right word?) a few years ago: less than 1000
brothers formed the so called Gran Loggia d' Italia, so recalling by this name
the attitude of the anglo-saxon world where any official masonic grand
lodge is
named after the title of "Grand Lodge of", where the european attitude is
different namely the grand lodges are named usually after the title of Grand
East (orient) of.
What appened is that the GOI lost the recognition of the grand lodge of
England as well, who bestowed its recognition to the Gran Loggia d' Italia. An
uncomprehensible choice I must confess as the Gran loggia d' italia is a very
tiny group that is even unable to settle a lodge in every province of the
italian territory (which is something a reasonably wide masonic family with
the
aim of being recognized should accomplish)!! Anyuway that is how it is so I
suppose that we can conclude that recognition in itself cannot always and
without distinctions be assumed as the most affordable indicator of the
reliability of a masonic family.
I think that there are many masonic groups whose philoisophy and whose
members'
prestige and attitude should be enough to recognize them as well. When we
share
the same oiutlook and the same purposes and (which is not last) the same
actual
behaviour to match with the masonic principles not just with words but also
with actions, than all the requirements to aspire to a full recognition should
be there, and it is sad that you cannot, say, host in your lodge a brother
that
you actually deem like a brother just because he belongs to a smaller group.
Surely, an email group should allow also for a better acquaintance with
brothers of any family, and in this group (but i am confident it happens also
in other masonic lists) no one is asked to provide his stats before
subscribing. Free-Masonry is an attitude of the mind and of the soul first than
all, and you can guess it when you experience to recruit members: you soon
discover that, also if you care and esteem a person who is a profane (awful
word, indeed!), you cannot convince him/her to join. This is the reason
recruiting is not advisable when in masonry. The best chioce is to wait that a
person develops an interest towards Free-Masonry on his/her own. This could be
regarded as a fairly clear sign that masonry is an elective affinity based
selection group, where if you don't have the same mentality and you don't have
developed it on your own according to the experiences of your own life and the
reflections and conclusions that your life led you to, there is no way to make
you build them by an external effort.
So as for your last question there is no doubt that any internet group that
elected to be devoted to free masonry is also meant to provide a worldwide
acquaintance with other brothers and, of course, between any kind of masonic
family.
I suppose any internet group is meant for this and also for discussion, for
becoming brainstorm,ing and promoting discussion, debating, therads, and, of
course, disagreement when it occours.
Subscribing to a group means to be eager to start a communication. This is the
reason it is unexplicable to my humble intelligence to detect why someone
joins
an internet group (better: to detect why he/she searched for it) when his/her
attitude is to elect secrecy as the quintessence of Free-Masonry, and he/she
declares that when he/she discusses of free masonry he/she does it only in
his/hjer lodge and even there only with some groups (degrees?). You can surely
have this opinion, but it is useless than to subscribe to a group whose aim is
communication and debate!
As for the latest misunderstandings or so, I suppose to being taking care of
the interest of any subscriber when I push this list toward the aim any
list is
meant for: starting threads, discussion, debates: it is implied that a
subscriber who chooses a group is expecting to receive this kind of
messages in
his/her inbox and is not wishing to see his/her inbox transformed in a simple
recipient of advertisments hinting to discussions undertaken somewhere
else. An
url can be provided, the address of another list can be provided (despite the
so called netiquette would disagree) but only as far as it is included
within
a body that respect the purposes for which an email group is started (this not
for the sake of the moderator, but for respecting the supposed expectations of
the other subscribers), namely within a post whose main contents is a reply to
a thread, or the issuing of a new thread.
One last word about organ donation: we received a post about it pointing
out to
an url. But i humbly think that the subject is interesting, unless it is not
just limited to an url! I have always been weary of organ donation, but i
would
be eager to know more. Its ethical involvements are many, and despite the
donation is necessary, there is always a prejudice (that I acknowledg it is a
prejudice but nonetheless i still share it): our body is under an
archetipiucal
point of view a temple, and i feel like a sense of defiling it when organ
donation is involved. I also know that on the internet was discovered a
traffic
of organs. So you see that the subject appears delicate and I would be glad to
know more about it, especially to hear the statements that are pro-donation. I
confess i am very ignorant about it and i would like if some brother more
experienced about it could teach me/us something more. How can we overcame the
innate diffidence towards this subject?
I hope this clarifies that the point is not to select the threads, but to
avoid
posting mails whose contents are deprived of elements of discussion.
Than, it may seem trivial but i wish to all of you the happiest new year
best fraternal regards
From ???@??? Sat Jan 02 04:48:56 1999
From: Carlo Luiqi Ciapetti
I am belonging to the Grande Oriente d'Italia (GOI) who at
the moment (since 1993) is also not recognised by the Grand
Lodge of England; however, initiated in France in 1961, I'm
participating to the ML with the same intention of JC Junot
... to have the opportunity to discuss with Bros from other
countries, who may have a different way of practising
Masonry and, whom you would never have met otherwise.
It is quite unlike that in an Institution, as Free-Masonry,
who claims to be universal may be so difficult to speak
each other, also inside the same national Lodge.
No secret problems, however, because I think that this
meeting point would be better used for human than for
esotheric activities.
To all the members, right in the moment, all the best New
Year greetings !
Carlo Luigi Ciapetti - Florence
SW at GOI Lodge #825 Citius
Zabud at GOI RSAA IX Aequitas
From ???@??? Sat Jan 02 04:50:08 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Free-Masonry Discussions
From: Doug McLean
Hi Brothers all
I subscribed to this list because of my interest in Free-Masonry in general
Currently I am in a very active Grand Chapter Team which keeps me busy on
the average of one day in every three travelling to all Masonic centres in
Victoria, Australia wherever a Chapter meets.
In Victoria, Australia it is the custom that all Installation ceremonies be
carried out by a Grand Chapter Team (Current Grand Officers).
If you are aware if the size of Victoria e.g the whole land mass of England
can be easily enclosed within its borders you will note that being in a
Grand Lodge team involves a lot of travel and overnight stays.
While being involved with Grand Lodge Team you are still expected to be
involved with the other orders with which you may be associated.
I am not sure how things operate in other countries as I have not had the
opportunity to visit outside Australia but hope to do so during June July
1999 if I can find a lodge meeting at the times and dates I am in the
country.
i.e Crieff area of Scotland, Greece for several days, New Orleans, and
Scandinavian countries.
Please do not let this list be used for petty criticisms of each other - I
am not a regular subscriber as I am reasonably busy and Internet cost are
significant in Australia at present where there is a huge cost differential
between city and rural residents.
While not being a regular subscriber I do appreciate the opportunity to read
communications posted to this list
A happy new year to you all.
Yours fraternally.
Doug McLean
Australia
Doug McLean
Warragul Vic. 3820
Australia
From ???@??? Thu Jan 07 09:06:47 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Wardens' seats in lodge
From: alberto vallini
IHallo,
I was reflecting on a ritual issue, and i think that a better solution could
come from comparing it with the experience of the other Brothers in the other
grand lodges and orients.
In the Grande Oriente d' Italia (goi) the wardens' seats are located as
follows:
the first warden is seating at the west, usually straight in the middle of the
two pillars, that should frame the sybolic entrance to the temple (which could
actually be posed somewhere else, but simbolically should be posed there, to
the west, so that the brothers leave the temple exit from the simbolic site
where the sun dies) , facing thus the east, perfectly aligned with the wm.
This should also simbolically recall the functions of, so to say, vice-wm of
the first warden. From that position the first warden can see both of the
lines
where the other brothers are seating, north and south both.
The second warden is located at the very middle of the south column. From
there
he can view the whole of the north which is fair as he is responsible for the
entered apprentices.
This location of the wardens appears, to me, wrong (!).
First, the two wardens should be aligned, because their commitments are
comparable. So they should seat on the same meridian.
Second, the second warden cannot carry out a complete inspection of his column
when the works start being opened. In fact during the inspection he crosses
the
first warden and starts the inspection of the north while the first inspects
the south, but when crosses again the first warden at the east, the first
warden inspect the whole of the north column before heading for its seat,
while
the second warden inspects but an half of the south line, because his seat is
in the middle of it and as soon as he reaches it he sits down (it would be
unacceptable that he would go on and than turn back : revolving the motion is
not allowed, and the only solution would be to square again the whole temple
before seating, realizing thus an highly asymmetrical motion if compared with
the movements of its counterpart, the first warden.
I suppose at this point that the positions should be different: Both wardens
should be aligned to the entrance pillars, the first to the north pillar, the
second to the south pillar. They both could see the north and the south, but
with a slightly better view of the south for the first warden and a better
view
of the north for the second warden, which is proper. Their alignment would
also
symbolically grant for their similar tasks and would prevent the previously
quoted hassle when inspecting the south by the second warden.
Moreover, as wardens, they should really be posed before the entrance
pillars. The only thing that must be remembered is this: while the first
warden, seating before the north pillar, should give his shoulders to the
pillar itself (which is normal), the second warden should give his shoulders
not to the south pillar, despite there is his seat, but his chair should allow
him to give his shoulders to the south. This would grant that simbolically he
is still seating to the south. This implication is necessary as the second
warden must also announce the midday/midnight, which couldn't be done if he is
not still seating, simbolically, on the meridian that crosses north/south.
Thus the two wardens should be seating before the pillars, but one of them
whit
his back to the south.
This last precaution is necessary as the temple has a symbolic space. For
instance a question while squaring is: must who seats to the orient square
once
again also the south/east angle before reaching his seat to the orient? Or can
he go staright to its seat without squaring once again the sout/east angle?
The
answer is that he must square that angle once again: in fact the south/east
angle is the one that symbolically separe and distinguish the south from the
east, and seating to the east without squaring it would mean to symbolically
imply that he still belongs to the south and he is still moving within the
boundaries of the south, as he did not undertake the angle that symbolically
separates those two spacial dimensions.
So also the second warden must seat before the south pillar but must also have
his back to the south in order to respect the symbolical implication that he
still belongs to the south, where he must dwell if we wants to announce the
midday coeherently.
I wonder how is the position of the wardens in other lodges.
As far as the matter of the secrecy is involved (which is a main concern for
somebody), i remember that these indications, provided even with maps, are
available in lots of books publicy sold about masonic issues. Any visit to a
public bookstore would testify immediatly about this allegation.
So i think it would be interesting to compare the position of the wardens with
other lodges, considering the observations made above(I agree that a map would
help but there is no way to provide a jpg or gif map but with an attachement,
which would slow down the connections).
All the lodges i have been so far work with the disposition of wardens that
seems symbolically wrong (!).
.
There is another sort of blow that comes from within- that you don't feel
until it's too late to do anything about it, until you realize with
finality that in some regard you will never be as good a man again
(F.S.Fitzgerald)
Alberto Vallini
From ???@??? Thu Jan 07 20:41:23 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Wardens' seats in lodge
From: Byrne
alberto wrote
>I was reflecting on a ritual issue, and i think that a better solution
>could come from comparing it with the experience of the other >Brothers in
the other grand lodges and orients.
i'm not sure that it helps to worry over much on such details
there is a wide variation in the arrangement of a lodge room between grand
lodges
if you go back to the earliest days then the wardens sat each side of the
master as in royal arch
there are arguments for a variety of layouts but whatever you change you
lose one facet and gain another - it's a matter of compromise
in the earliest days the lodge room was supposed to represent kst which
makes the altar in the middle more correct but few grand lodges accept this
line now
fraternally
patrick
From ???@??? Wed Jan 13 05:36:50 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] 2013-oda (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013oda.htm)
http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013oda.htm
FROM YOUR MODERATOR
excuse my intrusion but we are receiving many messages like this one
(exactly what you see in here excluding these 3 lines by me).
If You'd like to receive them in Your inbox, just tell me and i set the list unmoderated.
MODERATOR COMMENTS ENDS HERE
Allegato convertito: c:\programmi\qualcomm\eudora mail\attach\2013-oda.url
From ???@??? Wed Jan 13 19:35:59 1999
From: patrick byrne
an internet group site is no place for advertisements which are unrelated to
the topic under discussion no matter how well intended
for my part i hope you will maintain the group on a moderated basis and edit
out similar appeals
fraternally
patrick byrne
From ???@??? Wed Jan 13 19:36:00 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] 2013-oda (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013oda.htm)
From: "Duncan J. Moore"
Dear Moderator,
Should this be a problem ? At least it is recognised Masonic input and not
interference by
head-bangers. It is good to know that the Grand Lodge of Tennessee is
involved in
something as laudable as organ donations, indeed the English District of
Cyprus is
involved in a similar project. Whilst those of us this side of the pond
have Masonic charities
nearer home than Tennessee to support, it is nonetheless good to know that
such things
are going on.
Fraternally yours
Duncan Moore PM 5454 (England)
From ???@??? Wed Jan 13 19:36:02 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: 2013-oda (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013oda.h tm)
From: "Owen, Ronald G. SGM"
Yes you may send me these list.
Ron Owen
From ???@??? Wed Jan 13 19:35:59 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: 2013-oda (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013oda.htm)
From: "patrick byrne"
don
an internet group site is no place for advertisements which are unrelated to
the topic under discussion no matter how well intended
for my part i hope you will maintain the group on a moderated basis and edit
out similar appeals
fraternally
patrick byrne
From ???@??? Fri Jan 15 05:49:46 1999
From: Mark Rollins
Don,
Most news groups frown on the posting of links to homepages.
-Mark
From ???@??? Sat Jan 16 05:02:22 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: 2013-oda (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013oda.htm)
Hi Don,
This is Dennis one of your new subscribers.
I saw this advertisment as interesting but do desire it on a regular basis.
I joined this for discussion and fellowship.
Thanks,
Dennis
From ???@??? Mon Feb 08 05:28:46 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] confused
From:
I just joined this list. I know it's not run by or restricted to Masons, but all my confusion
(and subsequent questions) need to be answered by Masons.
I've been on the web exploring the
society, and have found few "pro-Mason" sites.
Mostly I find Mason-haters, and it's hard to gleen
from their arguments the actual position of the Masons.
So I'd like to start a dialogue, perhaps in private, addressing the concerns I have,
or rather, the things I've found on the web. I want to hear real explanations, not just,
"They're lying" and stuff like that.
If anyone is interested in being my info source on all this,
please email me privately at (***), or give me the ok and I'll post to the list.
Thanks,
Rachel
From ???@??? Mon Feb 08 05:33:37 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: confused
Dear Racheal,
I am glad that you have asked for information on Free-Masonry. There are many
masonic Sites that go into detail about the wonderful principles we stand
for.. Masonry is a Fraternity that holds for it's Principle Tenets, Brotherly
Love , Relief, and Truth.. I have found that many anti's have personal agendas
for the fabrications they post regarding Free-Masonry. In many cases they do
not use their names but scren names and never offer proof of what they say..
We are a Gentle and Loving Fraternity. They key is "Fraternity". Anti's say
that wer are a Religion but how can this be true since membership is open to
all men who belive in a Supreme Being (God). Masonry is Religions best friend
as it teaches a man to dedicate his life and service to the God of his Faith.
Most of the anti's are Right Wing Christians who do not understand (or choose
not to) that we are a Fraternal Organization. I am a Christian and feel that
the hatred being spread by anti's toward Masons and others is not what Jesus
taught us. There are many Religious Leaders who are Masons as well. I have met
many anti's who usually are selling a book, attempting to get members for
their so called Religious organization, or want some attention. I have also
met evey good people who simply have believed what a Clergymen has told them
because he is a position of trust.. Those who are open minded and willing to
investigate for their own what we are and what we stand for usually can see
that Masonry is good and contributes much to Society. Masonry begins in a
persons heart.. Now that seems funny since the heart is a muscle bit it is the
heart condition of a person that has him look into Masonry. So many men who
have contributed to Society and History of the world have been Masons.. In
many communities you will find Masonic Family members getting involved and
helping others.. Other then a ring or a belt buckle they are not out there
screaming "hey I am a Mason" since Masonry is from the heart. We believe that
it is not the getting the credit for getting the job done by just getting the
job done.. I recently read that in a Scottish Rite (Masonic Appendant Body)
Magazine and it stayed in my mind. Many people have no idea that the Shriner
Hospitals are part of the Masonic Family.. We are involved in so many things
that help others, most of whom have no Masonic Affiliation.. I love this
Fraternity and can go on forever but I do not want to bore you. I will post a
few great sites that explain Masonry but also a few imparticular that dispell
the lies that the anti's post.. Here they are: Bro's Art DeHoyas & Brent
Morris "Is It True What They Say About Free-Masonry
(http://members.aol.com/adehoyos/chap1.htm)
Bro. Ed King's Site "Anti Masonry Point of View"
(http://www.masonicinfo.com/).Both sites go into detail and dispell the anti's
fabrications with facts that are very easy to verify.
There are other really good sites that can help and I am sure the Brethren
will also contribute to giving you these sites.. Please feel free to e-mail
me. Please also let me know what you think about the sites I have given you
and if they are helpful to your quest of finding out the Truth about
Free-Masonry..
Sincerely & Respectfully
Bro. Manny Blanco (Junior Warden)
Moreno Valley Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley , CA
Jurisdiction of Grand Lodge of California.
From ???@??? Mon Feb 08 08:07:51 1999
Dear Rachel,
This is a bit of information puout by Grand Lodge of California. It is a brief
description of Free-Masonry but gets to the point.. Hope it helps:
What is Free-Masonry?
It's the oldest, largest and most
prestigious fraternity in the
world. We're kind of like
a civic club, a charitable
institution and a fraternity - all
rolled into one.
We're a civic club in that
we do a lot of community and
state wide projects. We're like
a major charity in that we give
almost $2 million away every
day. But, most importantly, we
are a fraternity for men doing
good things for each other and
trying to bring men of good
morals and ethics together in
our community.
What do you get out of it?
A lot of pride, a sense of
belonging to an organization that
exists all over the world. Being
part of a great heritage. Sharing
an identity with the greatest men
of the past - and of today.
Sharing a special bond with men
From all walks of life - creating
Life- long friendships with them.
Just being a member of an
organization that believes in
toleration - that lets each man
think for himself and express his
own opinions, without worrying
about being wrong.
I get a lot more out of Masonry
Than I put into it.
What do Masons Do?
The most important thing we do is
take care of each other and our
families. We are a fraternity
That means we help other
Masons, treat them in special
ways, support them no matter
where they live. And build
friendships all over the world.
not very many organizations do
that today.
And we help others. That's why
We give almost $2 million a day
to charity. And most of our
money goes to help kids. We
rank among the top 10 best-liked
charitable groups in America.
But we also teach leadership
skills, and help men lead an
ethics-based life. We promote
good relationships and strong
family values. We try to do
something to strengthen the
family unit every day.
What is the Mission of Masonry?
To promote a way of life that
binds like-minded men in a
Worldwide Brotherhood that
transcends all religious, ethnic,
cultural, social and educational
differences: by teaching the
great principles of brotherly
love, relief and truth and by
the outward expression of these
through its fellowship, it's
compassion and it's concern to
find ways in which to serve
God, family, country, neighbors
and self.
Hope it helps
Sincerely & Respectfully
Bro. Manny Blanco (Junior Warden)
Moreno Valley Lodge # 804
Moreno Valley, CA
Jurisdiction of Grand Lodge of California
From ???@??? Mon Feb 08 08:07:52 1999
dear rachel:
Talk to Masons about masonery! here's how. But borrow someone's AOL
account... I don;t know how you will do this on eGroups .com..... do an aol
search in search aol membership directory. use masons, or masonery , or
freemasonery in the search
line criteria topbox. Make sure you insert the commas and the or. this will
produce a list of 1-100 names. next click on more at the bottom of the list
3 or 4 times until you have 100 of 100 listed that will let you scroll thru
the entire list form top to bottom without losing any or researchinr or
more. now some ar people whose name is mason, some live in fort mason or
someplace litke that...soo not all 100 are members of fre and accepted
masonery. but you can click on their names, get a profile and try to figgure
it out....here's a couple from the list that are....
ALL THE FOLLOWING NAMES MUST HAVE @aol.com after the listing
when sending your email if you are not an aol subscriber......
john(***) ken(***) hbac(***) ep9(***)
now i haven;t coresponded with any of the above but i know the people from the
AOL subscriber list below.......if you want people i actually know, write
to.....:
dand(***) rho(***) ank(***) dele(***) lordy(***)
all are aol.com addreses and you probably should say you got their name form
el(***) dander is particualrly helpful and considerate.
i wish you luck in learning more about masonery there are lots of websiste,
it bet you haven;t found very many yet after all...
There is another membersearch criteria to use...dander's name didn;t even show
on my first search. use, masons, or freemasonery, or OES with the OES
criteria you pull up more masoinc members names. you might try or shrine as
well insearch pattern. As you scroll through the list, of aol masonic
answers, doubleclick on member line name and you can read the profile.
Good luck to those of you who don;t have AOLfor help in finding brother
masons....we have a very large member ship of maosns on AOL.
i'll write another letter another day listing masoinic websites a
bluelines....
Have a Blessed Day.
Elims3 aka , Bea ( I am a female)
From ???@??? Wed Feb 10 05:54:30 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: confused
From: "Kim"
Rachel...I agree with you. I also have been researching the Masons as well.
I also have questions which is why I joined as well. :) So far I have
heard nothing in this group...though I just joined and have not had the time
to introduce myself as of yet. My name is Kim. Hi. LOL One thing I know
is they are not Satanists...LOL I actually have a friend who wears the
ring...though I dont talk about it much...I know that it is something that
keeps popping up everywhere I go....like I am haunted with knowing the truth
of all things....I know that the Catholics seem to be the most agressive
against the Free-Masonry but in my eyes it is the Catholics we need to be
watching...they hide to much from us..mush like the government....but this
is just my opinion.
Talk to you soon I hope.
Kim
From ???@??? Wed Feb 10 05:54:40 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Kim
From: Rachel Jones
Kim,
Yes, I've heard all about the Satanist thing, too... something about a
spirit talking through a woman and telling her what to write in a book
of mason stuff... weird crap, I say.
Yes, all the anti-sites I see seem to be Catholic-based, seeing as how
they refer to birth control and divorce as basically evil sins against
God and the Church.
Rachel
From ???@??? Wed Feb 10 05:54:51 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: Kim
From:
catholic anti-mason....
I thought all the antagonism between catholics and masons was generated by the
requirement to take an oath or wswear loayalty and secrecy and the catholics
want allegiance to the pope and no secrets or so i was given to
understand...in many parts of the us ther was always great animosity...my mom
turned the wierdest horriblest shade of angry yellow when i told her i wanted
to become a catholic...her dad was a lifetime mason....she was brought up in
west virginia as anticatholic .
I ahve no problem being masonic (Eastern Star) its jsut simply a mater of
behaving according to the situation you are in in my opinion. you wear a
sweatshirt and tennishoes to a baseball game , pumps to work and your formal
and dancing shoes to masonic affairs and you act according to your
surroundings.
Since masonery is not a religion and we do not prosthelize (try to make
anybody into any preformed concept of religion) i don;t see why other people,
religions have a problem with us.
Bea
From ???@??? Wed Feb 10 05:55:49 1999
From: "Duncan J. Moore"
Dear Kim, Rachel and anyone else,
Don't worry about the antis. They will always be there and there are
basically two groups: firstly, people who are naive enough to believe that
hundreds of thousands of respectable men and women can be cajoled into
performing satanic acts and other weird things and that they have sinister
influences through their masonry and secondly, those who believe they have
been unfairly treated (passed over for promotion at work etc) because of
Masonic conspiracies.
Neither group has any justification and they tend to come and go. Another
thing is not to worry about the Church of Rome. They have entered into
discussions with Masonic authorities before and admitted that there is no
in Masonry. There are plenty of practising Catholics who are good masons.
Rome too has its share of nutters and extremists. I think the worst attacks
these days are coming from far out evangelical groups and their main
problem is that they want their adherents to be totally committed to them.
Therefore they see Masonry as a form of competition which they don't like.
Probably the best way forward is to concentrate on the positive aspects of
Masonry - the charitable giving and good fellowship and the great deal of
happiness it has brought to millions of people over the centuries. Leave
the conspiracy-theorists to their ravings, they would have as much success
proving anything if they were accusing the Girl Guides, because Masonry is
just as blameless.
Sincerely yours
Duncan Moore
From ???@??? Wed Feb 10 05:55:59 1999
From: Rachel Jones
Duncan,
With all due respect, I prefer to plod along through the anti-material
to see if they can make a case. I choose to examine everything, rather
than accept at face value. Just the way I am. I'm not blaming any one
group for their wacked-out misgivings about Masons, nor am I assuming
that they're all fools and the Masons are purely an innocent society.
I must go my own way to find the truth...
Rachel
From ???@??? Thu Feb 11 02:01:38 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: confused
From: "Duncan J. Moore"
Fair enough; we have nothing to hide. I wish you luck.
Duncan Moore
UK
From ???@??? Thu Feb 11 02:02:13 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: confused
From:
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Hash: SHA1
Hi
I've snipped off both Rachel and Kim's initial postings, but hope to
answer a couple of questions.
My name is Alistair and I live in the South of England. I am a member
of two Masonic orders, Craft masonry and the Royal Arch. I am a
professional Engineer.
My masonic interests are history and philosophical development of the
orders and I hope to join Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite (Rose
Croix), Royal Order of Scotland and Societas Rosecruciana in Anglia.
With regard to Rachels query about Masons views:
Each Mason has his, or her, own views on the craft, we all come from
different backgrounds and beliefs, so it is diffiuclt to come to any
real agreement about what Masonry means, it is a very personal thing.
The Anti's tend to divide in two camps, the religious fanatic or
zealot who object to our acceptance of all faiths. Their viewpoint is
that of the religious Fascist and the arguments tend to degenerate
into name calling matches. The other camp is those that are convinced
that Free-Masonry is the root of all the worlds woes ;-) generally
directed at them.
There are some anti's who can carry out a reasoned, calm discussion,
but they are few and far between. Discussions can be educational
because they cause us to consider what we do.
A forum such as this is probably better than a private correspondence
because a range of viewpoints can be seen.
On Kims points:
The Catholic church banned Free-Masonry in the 18th century. The
reasoning seems to be because Free-Masonry encourages freedom of
thought and intellectual development, this was contrary to religious
doctrine at the time. The ban has carried through to the present day
because it is a tradition more than anything else.
Good sources of discussion are Soc.org.Free-Masonry which is a
moderated newsgroup, anyone may post there but the moderation filters
out the mindless mudslinging matches and leads to some interesting,
reasoned discussions. Another ng is alt.Free-Masonry, which is heavily
populated by antis. The whole range are there Mike Restivo can
provide a good discussion, all the way down to Ken Mitchell (Avengers)
who disengages his brain before posting ;-))) Feel free to join in
there.
Freemaonsry is not a secret society, we have secrets but these are the
modes of recognition. All other aspects of the craft can be
discussed, leading to learning all round.
I hope this list can be used for interesting discussion, and learning
all round. I still have a lot to learn and there are bound to be more
experienced Masons here.
Yours S&F
Alistair Rae
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From ???@??? Thu Feb 11 02:21:27 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: confused
From: alberto vallini
Hallo,
I drop my two cents in,
Free masonry appears controversial due to mostly unknown reasons.
The masonic rituals gain suggestions by a lot of religous and esoteric
traditions and legacy, thus within a masonic temple you could find (BTW you
can
visit masonic temples while the wors are not on: just contact the Grand Lodge
closest to Your location: look simply on a phonebook for Grand Lodge or Great
orient) induistic, ancient greece, christian symbols.
What i imply is that the opposition to Free-Masonry is a one way opposition:
the
catholic church opposites Free masonry, but free masonry does not opposites
the
roman church!
I suppose that most of the misunderstandings come from the fact that free
masonry champions and sports too much the issue of secrecy where, actually,
there is no secret. What should be investigated here would be the psicological
profile that leads a man to find appealing the issue of secrecy. Sorth of a
stealth mentality or, better, of a reserved approach.
After all, I must confess that any search about what is masonry would
definitively be unproductive, because there is nothing to discover.
If you feel like sharing an environment that provides you with:
1)an average cultural level a bit higher than normal
2)the chance for acting and practicing some rituals (which is a desire that is
led by the same motions and reasons that led men everywhere in the history to
search for rituals: there is nothing, so, masonic-specific under this point of
view: some men find it necessary to express their souls to follow some rituals
at scheduled times: it is the same than attending a church, JUST undwer the
point of view of practicing a ritual. The difference is thst the ritual is
laical and not religious)
3)a sense of brotherood, namely an environment where the usual conflicts that
can occour in the everyday relations will be handled in a more productive way:
when you disagree with a brother, you make an EFFORT to behave differently
from
the way you would have behaved, say, with a stranger
4)The third point brings a major outcome also within the non-masonic life of
the mason, as it produces improvement in his/her soul and behaviour in the
general life.
5)If you look for economical help, Free Masonry can be a great delusion. The
only kind of business that can be made "trough" Free-Masonry are the same one
that you could do if you'd share a network of connections of your own.
That's all, really!
So i think that searching too much would be unproductive, because there is no
real Graal to be found.
best regards
From ???@??? Thu Feb 11 23:09:01 1999
Subject: [Free-Masonry] Re: confused
From: "Duncan J. Moore"
Message text written by INTERNET:Free-Masonry@eGroups.com
>My masonic interests are history and philosophical development of the
orders and I hope to join Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite (Rose
Croix), Royal Order of Scotland and Societas Rosecruciana in Anglia.
Dear Alistair,
I can recommend all of these, but don't miss out on the Knights Templar and
the Red Cross of Constantine if you are interested in Christian
Free-Masonry.
s & f
Duncan Moore PM 5454 (Cheshire)
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