CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Interview With Queen Rania of Jordan

Jordan's Queen Raina believes Palestinians and Israelis have at least one thing in common -- a sense of helplessness.

LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, a queen in the middle of a war zone. An exclusive interview with Queen Rania of Jordan. She's a Palestinian married into royalty on a quest for peace in the Middle East. What's her solution

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KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

We welcome to this program Her Majesty Queen Rania of Jordan. Always a great pleasure to see her. She is in, of course, Amman, Jordan, the capital of her country. She lead a march for Palestinian rights last week.

What was that all about, Your Majesty?

QUEEN RANIA,JORDAN: Well, Larry, you know, a few days into this crisis, we began to get reports about the human rights situation in the occupied territories. And I was speaking to many human rights groups and it became very clear that there was clearly a human rights crisis unfolding in the West Bank and, you know, it was a human rights catastrophe, in fact, of huge, horrific proportions. And we really felt that the world needs to know about this. It was an appeal to the international community to try to get Israel to apply the international humanitarian laws and human rights laws.

You know, with so many children and women who have been deprived of the basic necessities, like water, food, medicine, a lot of the people were not able to get to hospitals to get treated. And up until today actually there are a lot of people dying because they can't access hospitals. So it's very important to bring this to light, for people to understand that no matter what the situation is people have a right to certain basic necessities, and these are the laws of war.

And it became obvious that Israel is not really applying these laws of war. And so what we were seeing actually in the West Bank is collective punishment of people. You know, Prime Minister Sharon is after some suspects that he believes are terrorists, but in the process he is terrorizing the lives of many, many people. Hundreds of thousands of people in the West Bank and occupied territories are suffering at the moment.

KING: Your Majesty, would it have been helpful though if you also took a stand against the human rights of the people in Israel who were killed by suicide bombers. They had a right to board the bus, or go to have a pizza.

RANIA: Well, I think Jordan has been very, very clear in this regard. We stand against any aggression committed against any innocent civilians, irrespective of the perpetrator or the victim. We do not approve of any aggression. We made that very clear. King Abdullah also made that very clear on numerous occasions.

We sit firmly with the United States on the aftermath of the September 11 attacks. We condemned those kinds of terrorist acts not only in words but also in actions. Jordan is very heavily and actively engaged in the war against terrorism all over the world. So I think we've made our stance very clear that we are against the killing of any innocent civilian.

But we also have to make sure that we understand why these things are happening. After September 11, actually in the last few weeks, many people have drawn parallels between the U.S. war against terrorism and Israel's war. But I think we need to look further -- although on the surface they might see some similarities but we need to look further, we need to look at the causes and therefore realize that the solutions might be different.

The United States was an innocent victim after September 11. It had never attacked or occupied Afghanistan. So therefore it had no choice but to go after the aggressors.

Whereas, if we look at the situation in Palestine, these are people living under occupation. They have been deprived of their rights, of their freedom, of their land. So therefore the solution is not to use aggression, but rather to go to the political process to open the door for political negotiations. I think that is the way to go.

KING: But there are, are there not, Your Majesty, sad causalities of war? Civilians in Afghanistan have died -- innocent civilians in the United States as retaliation to terrorism. That's the nature of the horror of killing in the first place, isn't it?

RANIA: Absolutely. And if you remember, Larry, when there were accounts of some civilians who were hit in Afghanistan, the whole world turned its attention to them, people investigated the situation. And most importantly the United States upheld in war the same principles of humanitarian assistance and respect for human rights as it does in peace.

What we're seeing here is that many Palestinian people have no access to even their basic rights. They have no access to medical attention. Medicines are not reaching them. They can't venture out of their own homes to buy some food. So this is collective punishment, and it really must be stopped.

KING: Now your petition asked for Kofi Annan to call for an immediate intervention to end the suffering. The intervention how? What do you want the United Nations to do?

RANIA: Well, first of all, I think that Israel should heed President Bush's request to withdraw from the occupied territories. And also, it's very important for Israel to stick to the United Nations resolutions and to allow the United Nations workers to go in there and to do their jobs to have access to the people that need the help the most. You know, we have a situation here where they are denied complete access to the people that need their assistance. And that's making a bad situation even worse. So we need the intervention.

And I really believe that the presence of an international force in the region is very, very important to pull the two parties aside, to enforce peace. Maybe we don't need peacekeepers, but we do need peace enforcers in the region. There's been a blame game going on for far too long and it is time that it stop, and it's time that we have some peace in this area.

KING: Is it difficult, Your Majesty, frankly to be objective since you are a Palestinian? Five million -- half of the Jordan population is Palestinian. Is it hard for you to take an objective view to see, say, the other side's viewpoint?

RANIA: It isn't. And I really always try to do that. This is something I learned from King Hussein. He used to always say, "You have to always put yourself in the other person's shoes, and try to see things from their own point of view." And I do do that, Larry.

But what I have been trying to do very much is to look at reports coming in from international, in fact, Israeli organizations who themselves are deploring the acts of the Israeli army against innocent civilians.

But we do look at the whole picture. We do want peace for both Israeli people and the Palestinians. They both have the right to live in peace and security, and really to secure the future of their children. That is something that we want for both people.

KING: Last night on CNN, the prime minister and the foreign minister, appearing with Wolf Blitzer, and with yours truly, both said that the army will pull out in a matter of days. Are you expecting that to happen as promised?

RANIA: Well, we really do hope so. And that is very, very important. I think these incursions have not achieved anything. Not only are they wrong, but they are also ineffective. They are planting the seeds of hatred and creating a feeling of anger and a need for revenge, which is just not healthy.

Prime Minister Sharon says that these incursions are taking place in order to dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism. I think it's actually that it is dismantling the infrastructure for peace. And that's something that we cannot let happen. We have to let the moderate voices speak. We have to hear those people who are calling for peace.

At the moment, both sides are losing. Nobody's a winner here, except extremists. And what we're seeing actually, in fact, is the majority of moderates, in the middle, being pulled to the side where the extremists are. And that is a very dangerous situation.

KING: Our guest is Her Majesty Queen Rania of Jordan, and she'll be with us for the rest of the program.

By the way, I want to urge you to watch tomorrow night, I urge the queen to watch as well, wherever you are in the world. A young man named Mattie Stepanek, he's 11 years old. He's the victim of a crippling disease of muscular dystrophy. You will not believe what you see. We taped it last week in Washington. It will air tomorrow night. Please tell your friends to watch Mattie Stepanek tomorrow night. It may change the way you think about the world.

We'll be right back with Her Majesty after this.

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KING: We're back with Queen Rania of Jordan from Amman.

Your husband, King Abdullah, has diplomatic ties, as we know, to both the Palestinian Authority and to Israel. The other day he told CNN that the conflicting sides have to come together because the alternative is violence on a scale we have never seen before in this part of the world.

Do you fear that bad an occurrence happening?

RANIA: Absolutely, Larry. I think a lot of people have talked about the alternative to peace and now we're getting a little taste of it and we really don't like it and it really shouldn't be the case. We really have to hear the voices of moderation. The people who fight for peace have fought for peace for a long time have been silent.

You know, I think many of us should remember the images of King Hussein just a few years ago. The last few months of his life when he was battling against cancer, when he left the hospital bed in order to witness the signing ceremony between Netanyahu at the time -- Prime Minister Netanyahu and Chairman Arafat, the effects of the chemotherapy clearly visible on him. And I knew at the time that the fight for peace -- his battle for peace, for him was more important than even the battle for his own life.

I remember looking at him and seeing this smile of hope and the look of conviction in his eyes and really wondering what all that aura was about. And I think looking back, it was a time of innocence; a time when we allowed ourselves to dream of a better future, where we held hopes that things could change.

And now that's all gone. People here are so pessimistic. Everyone that comes out to the region keeps saying, "We can't achieve peace. It can't be done." Well, I think that we should defeat the defeatists, and really fight for peace, because the alternative is terrible for everyone. It's just going to make our world a very ugly place and we can't afford for that to happen.

KING: Isn't one of the great dilemma's, Your Majesty -- and you live there, so you would know better than any of us -- why there seems to be always been killings? Hussein in Iraq, I'm told, has killed more Arabs than Israel ever killed. Killing seems a part of the culture of the Middle East.

First, is that true or is it only the extremists affecting everything?

RANIA: Well, I don't think it's true in this case, because clearly the Palestinian people are living under occupation and that is the root cause of the problem. When you deprive people of their right to live in dignity, to hope for a better future, to have control over their lives, when you deprive them of that choice, then you expect them to fight for these rights. And we hope that they can fight through peaceful negotiations, not through conflicts.

And this is what's happening now. We're finding that because, you know, the Israeli side hasn't honored some of its agreements, because there are disagreements between the two sides, they have resorted to violence. And it's wrong and it should stop. We don't want violence for both sides.

We need the voices of moderation. Again, I keep saying that, but we really do because I'm very worried about the kind of language that's being used in our region. We keep hearing accusations and calls for revenge and violence and counterviolence on all sides, and this is creating a generation that knows only violence. We have to give them a better alternative.

KING: But the Palestinians have always been occupied, haven't they? I mean, Egypt occupied them before they've been so-called occupied now. Why wasn't there the anger over that occupation?

RANIA: Well, today, Larry, I don't think I can think of another people who are living under occupation. They are deprived of many of the rights that any normal citizen can expect in this day and age and that's the real cause. The real cause is them not having the right to govern themselves, not having the rights to own their own land, to live in peace and dignity. It's caused a lot of humiliation.

We have to get back on the negotiating table and really try to resolve some of these issues.

And I must say that we need the engagement of the international community because clearly these two sides can't find a solution on their own. There needs to be the full engagement of a third party, preferably the United States because that's viewed as the party that has leverage over Israel and can assure the fairness -- can make sure that both sides are honoring any agreements that are reached between them.

KING: There are heavy pressures we hear on your husband to sever diplomatic ties with Israel -- pressures on him to do that. Is he giving that any thought at all to your knowledge?

RANIA: Well, you know, there always is pressure. There are many people who are feeling very frustrated and disheartened, feeling that these acts of brutal violence that we're witnessing may mean that Israel is not a partner for peace. However, there are many also who really understand the importance and significance of this relationship with Israel; the fact that we are able to also help the Palestinians through this relationship.

We really believe that cutting ties would be the final victory for the anti-peace camp and we urge the Israeli side to really be a partner for peace, to really negotiate, to really recognize the needs and the rights of the Palestinian people.

KING: Are you optimistic about the... RANIA: And I must remind you, Larry, that...

KING: No, go ahead, finish.

RANIA: I just wanted to say that just over two weeks ago at the Arab League summit, the Arabs came up with a very political proposal to Israel where Israel's security would be guaranteed not only by the Palestinians but by all Arab states in return for a return to the 1967 borders, and I feel that that could have been a great starting point. But then the response to that, that was completely ignored. We need to get back to that because it's a very good proposal and could be the light at the end of the tunnel, if you will.

KING: Are you encouraged, Your Majesty, by Colin Powell's involvement?

RANIA: I am, indeed. I think he's trying very hard. He's talking. We're very encouraged that he's talking to all sides in this conflict. He's trying to have an even-handed approach. I think he is very pragmatic and will really try to do the best that he can to secure a peace.

And as I said earlier, you know, they can't do it alone. They need the intervention of another side.

And I think the American leadership is a test here, because being the last remaining super power, its moral authority is at stake here. The whole world is looking to see that America applies the principles of justice and tolerance of human rights to all parts of the world. So I urge the United States to remain fully engaged.

KING: The international peace conference proposed by the secretary to have foreign ministers, does your government support that, and are you going to send your foreign minister?

RANIA: I'm not quite clear about the details of this conference. But we are always supportive of any initiatives that promote peace. So I'm sure that our government will be supportive of that principle, but I don't know further details about it.

KING: We'll be right back with Her Majesty Queen Rania of Jordan. It's always a great pleasure to see her and have her with us.

Don't go away.

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KING: We're back with Her Majesty Queen Rania of Jordan.

In an interview before her husband issued a statement condemning terrorism, Mrs. Arafat told a Arab-language magazine that she endorses suicide attacks as a legitimate resistance. Was published Friday in a London-based Saudi-owned weekly. She said that if she had a son there would be no greater honor than sacrificing him to the Palestinian cause. And is that one of the problems you and the moderate end face, statements like that?

RANIA: I can't speak for Mrs. Arafat, but as I said, Jordan has stood very firmly and very clearly against the targeting of any innocent civilians. We understand the need for the Palestinian people to fight for their freedom, but this has to be a legitimate fight.

And, you know, as I said, a mother is a mother. We are all mothers. We know how we feel toward our children. We know how difficult it is when even one of our children is ill. So you have to think what a mother must be going through when she loses a child.

And I just want to also remind you, I saw a few days ago on one of the channels, a mother of a suicide bomber who was saying that had she known what her son was going to do, she would have prevented him from doing it. And she said that she felt with every Israeli mother who has lost a child. So these are the voices of tolerance that we want to be listening to right now.

I also heard on the Israeli side, a bystander after one of the attacks on one of the buses, who was saying that if he was a Palestinian he'd understand how they could become suicide bombers living under such terrible conditions.

So those people who are willing to put each other -- to stand in each other shoes and see things from the other side, those are the kind of people who have the overall picture and who will really achieve a lot in order to progress the situation on the ground.

KING: But will you agree that statements like that don't help; when Mrs. Arafat or whoever makes a statement like that, doesn't help your cause?

RANIA: Absolutely. I'm telling you that we've been hearing so much violence, language of aggression and violence. And as I said, the extremists are speaking the loudest at this time. And that is not the best situation. We need to be hearing the other side, as well. The peace camp, which has been silenced for the past two years, where are they?

Actually, over the last few days I've received over my web site many, many comments from Israelis, Palestinians, from people all over the world who are talking about this, who are saying that we need to get back, we need to make our voices heard. We need to show the alternative to violence. We do not accept to live under these conditions.

KING: About Chairman Arafat, your husband said that he is an all-time hero in the Middle East, stronger position than any other leader at the moment because of the popularity he has with his own people. Do you know Chairman Arafat? And do you share your husband's views?

RANIA: I've met Chairman Arafat on several occasions. And the fact is on the ground that he is very, very popular right now. And although the Israeli side is saying that he's irrelevant, I think that he is relevant simply because his people say he is. He was chosen by his people. And these are the people that they want to -- he's the person that they want to represent them. So that makes him relevant. And he has been a partner in the peace process for the past 11 years. So I don't think we can completely undermine him and say that he's irrelevant. He is a player.

And I hope that with this peace conference, that you mentioned, that he will attend, because it won't be an objective conference if both sides aren't there to state their case.

KING: And Jordan is also denying an Arab-media report that the Israeli government prevented Jordan's foreign minister from visiting Arafat. Your government says a meeting is expected in the next few days. Do you know if that's going to happen?

RANIA: I'm not quite aware of the details. But I think that our foreign minister most probably will be seeing Chairman Arafat in the next period, at least.

KING: Also, your nation has helicopter...

RANIA: Jordan has always been a...

KING: I'm sorry. Go ahead and finish.

RANIA: Jordan has always been a country that's very committed to peace. It's been a voice of moderation in this region, and will continue to be that. We really hope that we can do whatever we can to bring some more stability to this region.

KING: And you've helicoptered food and medical supplies into Mr. Arafat, as well, just yesterday.

RANIA: Yes, indeed we have. Because, as I mentioned earlier, this situation is really horrific. I mean, I'm hearing until today, for example, I think yesterday they allowed for some United Nations workers to go in to clear out some of the bodies. However, they weren't even allowed to unload some of the medical supplies from their trucks. And I've just been hearing from people that I know that relatives have been dying, just because they couldn't reach the hospital. So we really have to focus on this humanitarian catastrophe that's taking place before our eyes in the 21st century.

The fact that the reporters can't have access, I don't think that's excusable. We need to know the truth. I think in this day and age, a time of transparency, of instant communications, the fact we don't know, that, kind of, scares me not to be able to know what's going on. It makes me wonder, what are we trying to hide here? We need to get to the facts on the ground. We need to help the people that need to be helped.

KING: Do you think it's a question, Your Majesty, that there are elements that, on both sides, frankly, that don't want peace?

RANIA: Absolutely, Larry. I mean, there are people on both sides, the extremists, who do not want peace. They can't find it in their hearts to fight for peace. But let's look at the majority of people who want to get on with their lives, who want to secure a better future for their children, those are the people who are stakeholders in the peace process.

I think what we need to do is articulate a vision for peace, along with a time frame, and that will be the goal at the end of the tunnel. And this idea of peace has to be sold to the people, because at the end of the day it is a peace between the people and not between the leaders. So once the people know what it is that they're working for, once they have a clear objective to work toward, then they will hold their leaders accountable for that and they will judge them according to whether they can deliver this vision of peace or not.

KING: We'll be right back with more of Her Majesty Queen Rania of Jordan.

Don't forget tomorrow night, Mattie Stepanek, a special show you will not forget. Don't go away.

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KING: We're back with the queen of Jordan, Her Majesty Queen Rania, in Amman.

A humanitarian concern for the Palestinians exists, as a U.S. food and agriculture organization says that the blockade of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip has paralyzed the Palestinian economy, and hunger and malnutrition are on the rise. How bad is it?

RANIA: By all accounts, Larry, it's really bad. The Palestinian infrastructure has been devastated. There's been destruction of homes, of schools, of hospitals. As I said, medical supplies are not coming in. People are not venturing out of their homes, to go and buy some food. For example, a mother who had just stuck her head out the window to call her children in for dinner was shot by a sniper.

So, as I said, the humanitarian situation is very bad. And as I mentioned earlier, this is collective punishment.

In Jenin, for example, this is a town of 14,000 people. The Israelis were after about 100 suspects that we heard might have been killed. But in the process, 13,900 people's lives were terrorized. So, is that right? Is that fair? Do we fight terrorism by terrorizing the lives of hundreds of thousands of people?

KING: And, of course, on the other side they will say people in Jerusalem are afraid to go out of their homes, afraid to get on a bus, streets are empty, because they're living in fear that some whacko is going to blow him- or herself up and take them with them. So it works both ways sometimes, the dilemma that you face.

RANIA: So, let's look at the real cause here. I think the real cause is helplessness. At the Palestinian side, the people feel that they have no control over their lives, they have nothing to look forward to, they can't secure a future for their children, and the feel they have nothing to lose. The peace process is not going anywhere, so therefore, they go and bomb themselves.

On the Israeli side, they feel helpless against these human bombs that they can't control. They don't know when they're going to blow up. And, as a result, because of this helplessness, they go and carry out those incursions. These incursions create hatred, they create anger and a feeling of revenge, and therefore more suicide bombs.

And this is what we're saying, is that these incursions, not only are they wrong, but they're also ineffective. That is not the way to go. The way is to open the door for peace negotiations.

KING: As you mentioned earlier, you are a mother. Do you fear for your own children's future in light of everything going on in your region?

RANIA: Well, thank God, Larry, Jordan is a very stable country. You know, we're quite safe here.

But recently -- I mean, I work on a project for the prevention of child abuse, and we just met this morning with the board members, and we were talking about the traumatic effects that the images that have been shown on television are having on our children here in Jordan. People are beginning to be very affected by the images that they've seen.

And I can only imagine what kind of effect this is having on the Palestinian children. They must be so traumatized. And we've heard from many psychologists who are saying that there are so many symptoms of the effects that this is having on the children. A lot of children are not able to go to bed on their own, they have to be with their parents and many more other, more serious symptoms are being seen.

So we have to be very careful of the kind of effects that this is having on our children. And, frankly, our children deserve better than this.

KING: Do you have any reason at all to be optimistic?

RANIA: I absolutely do. I think giving up is irresponsible. We have to have hope. Hopelessness is what brought us into this situation in the first place. We have to fight for peace. We must not listen to the people who say it can't be done. It can be done because it has to be done. The alternative is too awful for the rest of the world and for the people of this region.

KING: Do you enjoy being queen? What's it like?

RANIA: Well, there's some good parts and some difficult parts. I think the last couple of weeks have been very, very tough. It's been so sad to see what's going on in the region, to see the efforts of people that I admire so much, like my father-in-law, the efforts, the things that he believed in being squandered like that, and to see people living under such harsh conditions. It's been very, very sad, and I really hope that we can find a way out of this mess.

KING: I thank you very much, Your Majesty. It's always a pleasure having you join us. We've covered a lot of bases, and we really appreciate it. Look forward to seeing you in person.

RANIA: Thank you very much, Larry. Thank you.

KING: Her Majesty Queen Rania of Jordan.