MystHuntr wb Pace

Pendragon.of.Britain Greetings, Eternum

EternumPace>>>) Hello, HNIWSH

WVLADY-Light_ hi eternum

katielee1954 hi eternum.. i like that name

cruelgirl89 i guess he likes him

Rosie1950 hi enternumpace

EternumPace>>>) thank you, katie

cruelgirl89 i realy don't know

WVLADY-Light_ ok..sweetie

EternumPace>>>) hello, Rosie

WVLADY-Light_ when does he leave?

Pendragon.of.Britain Hullo Angels!

WVLADY-Light_ hi Angelheart & Angelkeeper

MystHuntr hey tehre Angels

Rosie1950 (~^~ Angels Hugggggggggggggs~^~<angelheart>)

angelkeeper Hello Sean :) :)

cruelgirl89 i think this weekened

SunRaven2 hey angels

angelheart31_ hugggs Sire

angelheart31_ hugs rosie

Pendragon.of.Britain Okay, okay, Rosie . .. you can stop singing . . I'll bring you a pony!!!

angelheart31_ hugs msyt hugs sunny

angelkeeper Hi WV, Hi Myst, Hi Rosie, Hi Sunny :) :) :)

Pendragon.of.Britain How are you tonight, Angels?

ShannonRuth hi angel

angelheart31_ hugg shannon

angelkeeper Hello to everyone :)

Rosie1950 yea!!!!!! thank you Seanta!!!!!!

WVLADY-Light_ lol @ Rosie

angelheart31_ hugggg tone and all

ShannonRuth can you keep up the cost of a pony/

ShannonRuth thinking of that simpson episode

ShannonRuth lol

Pendragon.of.Britain Shannon, ever thought of tagging that av, "Got Milk?"

Rosie1950 have room and small barn-hmmmm-gotta buy him shoes though :)

ShannonRuth hehe

Pendragon.of.Britain sorry, I was bad

Pendragon.of.Britain I hadta

ShannonRuth it is more than okay

angelheart31_ i alwasy bad ask keeper lol

ShannonRuth this av asks for it

Pendragon.of.Britain Indeed, Shannon

WVLADY-Light_ brb I need something to drink ..like desperately

Pendragon.of.Britain Water, Lady Light

cruelgirl89 k>

Pendragon.of.Britain Water is a great thirst quencher

WVLADY-Light_ lol something stronger Sean to wake me up

Pendragon.of.Britain aaah, now there's the real you, Shannon

Pendragon.of.Britain Water will do it, Lady Light . . . really

Pendragon.of.Britain oddly enough

katielee1954 shannon.. that av is beautiful

ShannonRuth ty

Pendragon.of.Britain that av looks more like her soul, Katie

ShannonRuth ahhhhhhhhh

katielee1954 then she is beautiful woman...

ShannonRuth the green one............

Pendragon.of.Britain welcome back JC

katielee1954 soul best part

Pendragon.of.Britain noooo, THIS one, Shannon

ShannonRuth okay

Pendragon.of.Britain sheesh, try to give a lady a compliment . . .

WVLADY-Light_ back..& yes..Sire..I got water ..so lets see

ShannonRuth blushing

Pendragon.of.Britain a big glass of it, Lady Light?

EternumPace>>>) John Donne wrote something along the lines of "without soul worship" how would one know one was truly alive?

ShannonRuth yikes

WVLADY-Light_ lol....now like a beer mug is that ok?

ShannonRuth and then there was one

ShannonRuth or whatever the heck

cruelgirl89 to small

WVLADY-Light_ too small?

xtaliesin is that your way of greeting someone?

xtaliesin hello shannon

ShannonRuth hello x

WVLADY-Light_ hello taliesin

WVLADY-Light_ oh ..lol

Pendragon.of.Britain the nicest compliment I ever got in VP was -- before anyone ever saw my real picture avs -- "You have such a beautiful soul, you couldn't be ugly on the outside, your soul would show through."

angelkeeper hi x :)

Rosie1950 hi xtalisin

cruelgirl89 that better

WVLADY-Light_ lol cute...& yeppers betters

ShannonRuth ahhhhhhhh

xtaliesin hello all......yes

WVLADY-Light_ ya need your name on it

Pendragon.of.Britain Isn't that a great compliment?

ShannonRuth pend, the rain last night

ShannonRuth nice huh/

cruelgirl89 yea

ShannonRuth it is

Pendragon.of.Britain we had a lot of rain here, and it was cold, but it's always nice

Pendragon.of.Britain it was sunny this morning, for awhile, that was nice too

ShannonRuth yep

Pendragon.of.Britain had the dark clouds still around

ShannonRuth i heard sat

ShannonRuth will pour

Pendragon.of.Britain excellent!! I love rain

ShannonRuth likewise

angelheart31_ (~~Keepers' Sexy Angel~~<ah>)

cruelgirl89 lol

ShannonRuth especially when i am off

WVLADY-Light_ lol

WVLADY-Light_ ummmmmm different

ShannonRuth wow, that av is so beautiful]

ShannonRuth ladt

ShannonRuth oops

angelheart31_ its time to say farewell yallltake care see yall next time (~*~ Night God Bless ~*~ May God Angels Cover You And Protect You ~*~ Sleep With The Angels ...^i^..{fai} ~*~)

ShannonRuth cold hands trying to type

ShannonRuth shivering

Pendragon.of.Britain Farewell, Angel, m'dear

angelheart31_ (Okay, I love you, Bye Bye!...)

Pendragon.of.Britain hugs

Pendragon.of.Britain Bye Keeper

WVLADY-Light_ ty Shannon..ctx.....he has been in a paintin mood..last week anyway

Rosie1950 night angels (~^~ Angels Hugggggggggggggs~^~<angelheart>)

angelheart31_ huugles

WVLADY-Light_ this week poetry

MystHuntr take care Angels

WVLADY-Light_ lol

EternumPace>>>) "...but if you must shed blood, though, better it be that of the earth, for She knows better than to sacrifice Her soul for the sake of foolish men. And healing is just that - soul worship"<CC>

angelkeeper Gn'ight all :) take care :) :)

WVLADY-Light_ laters Angelssssss...take care

angelkeeper *poof*

ShannonRuth well its a marvelous night for a moondance

Pendragon.of.Britain I'm learning that song, Shannon

WVLADY-Light_ Amanda I need to send you his latest..he sent today ..you might like um

ShannonRuth its on right now

ShannonRuth 104.5

cruelgirl89 k

SunRaven2 ahhh someone else has seen the moon!!!!

Rosie1950 Myst that av needs something :)

ShannonRuth i can hardly see it

EternumPace>>>) "...lets climb through the tide,,lets swim to the moon" <morrison>

MystHuntr a cat in the corner?

Rosie1950 heehee

Pendragon.of.Britain I don't know exactly how I'm going to do that song though . . . not like Morrison

ShannonRuth your as sweet as tupelo honey

Rosie1950 4 or 5 in the yard would be better

ShannonRuth aw he is talking jim

Pendragon.of.Britain I like "Into the mystic" too

katielee1954 brb

Rosie1950 oooooooo-now that is a good song

ShannonRuth we were born...........

EternumPace>>>) I saw an advertisement on my wan into VP inviting people to share a "special VP moment"

Pendragon.of.Britain and Morrison did one album with the Chieftains, called Celtic Ray or something like that, a great album

ShannonRuth love me some morrison

janiepop howdy doody all

SunRaven2 Rosie - theres one on the porch

ShannonRuth hey janie

MystHuntr Howdy Janie

ShannonRuth remember when morrison played with jeff beck?

naime232 hi

SunRaven2 greets janie

Rosie1950 cannot see sun-too small

Rosie1950 hi janie

Pendragon.of.Britain The lyrics to "Into the mystic" lend themselves to a very folky/Celtic arrangemetn

janiepop eternum yes i saw that and thought a moment bahhhhh I've had 100's lol

ShannonRuth beautiful

EternumPace>>>) Shannon, if you were reciting lyrics, please continue

ShannonRuth we were born

Pendragon.of.Britain before the wind

ShannonRuth oh so younger

WVLADY-Light_ hello Janie, Alice & any new

Pendragon.of.Britain than the son

Pendragon.of.Britain sun

ShannonRuth everybody

Pendragon.of.Britain 'ere the bonny boat was won as we sailed into the mystic

ShannonRuth ahhhhhhh

ShannonRuth that morrison

Rosie1950 :)

MystHuntr van morrison, not Jim

ShannonRuth i wanna rock your gypys soul

Pendragon.of.Britain Hark now, hear the sailors cry

ShannonRuth just like in the days of old

Pendragon.of.Britain Smell the sea and feel the sky

EternumPace>>>) "...the boat is in the sky...a wonder of the why...the living...the dying...the way floats on a lie..." <tower>

Pendragon.of.Britain Let your soul and spirit fly into the mystic

ShannonRuth goosebumps

Rosie1950 ooooo-hear it now :0

Pendragon.of.Britain great lyrics

Pendragon.of.Britain Hullo Janie

ShannonRuth hi style

janiepop hehe Pen

EternumPace>>>) i like that av, Rosie. haha

_Stylequeen_ hello Shannon

Pendragon.of.Britain and when that fog horn blows I will be coming home, and when that fog horn blows I want to hear it

janiepop one too many e's

_Stylequeen_ hi everyone

Rosie1950 hi style

MystHuntr wb Style

_Stylequeen_ hi rosie

janiepop Style hi

_Stylequeen_ ty myst

ShannonRuth wondering if i can wonder around the corner for some kareoke

ShannonRuth lol

_Stylequeen_ hi janie

WVLADY-Light_ wb Style

ShannonRuth feeling brave

Pendragon.of.Britain I don't have to fear it, I want to rock your gypsy soul, just like in the days of old

_Stylequeen_ ty wv

WVLADY-Light_ dang Amanda can't find the one I think you would like

Pendragon.of.Britain and then magnificently we will float into the mystic

cruelgirl89 damn it...get away

Rosie1950 sigh

WVLADY-Light_ Amanda..chit

Pendragon.of.Britain isn't that a great line . . . "magnificently we will float into the mystic"

ShannonRuth janie

WVLADY-Light_ there is no need for that

ShannonRuth sweets

WVLADY-Light_ yes it is ..Sean

ShannonRuth shhhhhhh

janiepop yes SR

ShannonRuth that is my password

WVLADY-Light_ you could have merely clicked your name..on the right Amanda

EternumPace>>>) that is jim morrsion, huh? I haven't heard those words before. I like them a lot.

ShannonRuth dont tell anyone

ShannonRuth lol

janiepop lol

Pendragon.of.Britain no, it's VAN Morrison, Eternum

ShannonRuth but jim

ShannonRuth is good too

Pendragon.of.Britain You know, the Brown Eyed Girl guy

_Stylequeen_ funny how some people ,,'need' that visual hey

EternumPace>>>) oh. VAn Morrison.

Pendragon.of.Britain Hey Style!!

janiepop used to sing brwin eyed girl to my darlin brown eyed girl

ShannonRuth sweet sweet

cruelgirl89 i don't want that damn av close to me

Pendragon.of.Britain so did I to mine, Janie

cruelgirl89 lol

_Stylequeen_ hehee,, Hey Pen!! =]

janiepop she loves it

Pendragon.of.Britain that song still makes my daughter cry for some reason

cruelgirl89 huh?

janiepop used to sing Misty to my husband

WVLADY-Light_ lol for meanness I should find a goodie for ya Amanda

ShannonRuth hey sweet janie

janiepop he's loves it

ShannonRuth would you be so kind as to send me that av?

janiepop he asks me to sing it to him

janiepop SR darlin np

WVLADY-Light_ hello M'Lady!!!!!!!!!!!

MLady_Angel hugggggsssssss VW how are you?

cruelgirl89 hi M'Lady

EternumPace>>>) once a place has an advertisement, what can one say, its like an idea, as emerson said, eternal

Pendragon.of.Britain Greetings, m'lady

MLady_Angel hi cruel

Pendragon.of.Britain Greetings, Empress

MLady_Angel greetings pen how are you

Empress_Scorpio_ViAn mm to you Pendragon :)

Empress_Scorpio_ViAn hello to all.

Pendragon.of.Britain MM Lady

MLady_Angel :)

ShannonRuth thank you

janiepop easy peasy japanesy

ShannonRuth lol

ShannonRuth and so much appreciated

Pendragon.of.Britain I think you'll like this room, Empress, a very diverse bunch of people are regulars, nice, but diverse

ShannonRuth hello empress

janiepop mere deatil m'dear

WVLADY-Light_ hello Empress

Empress_Scorpio_ViAn hello Shannon

cruelgirl89 dang it wv

Empress_Scorpio_ViAn hello WVLady

_Stylequeen_ unity thru diversity hey Sean

Rosie1950 hi empress

EternumPace>>>) HNIWSH

_Stylequeen_ =]

Empress_Scorpio_ViAn hello Rosie

WVLADY-Light_ *smile* Amanda..deal with it

Empress_Scorpio_ViAn feeling most welcome

ShannonRuth nice wv

Pendragon.of.Britain yes, Style . . . that's a good way of putting it

WVLADY-Light_ ty Shannon..gift from Baedon dear ..friend

ShannonRuth i love seeing jesus like that

Rosie1950 hi mladyangel

janiepop we're leading a religion room recovery Style

MLady_Angel hugssssssss rosie

Pendragon.of.Britain He looks like Barry Gibb in that av, Lady Light

_Stylequeen_ is That waht this is janie . =]

ShannonRuth lol

janiepop yes Style we're healing the world

_Stylequeen_ =]

ShannonRuth one smile at a time

janiepop after 11th

janiepop we figure that if we can get along so can the rest of the mob

ShannonRuth takes one for peace

janiepop Ygraine got us started

janiepop on 11th

nikim19 hello

ShannonRuth hi nikim

ShannonRuth how goes friend?

Rosie1950 hi nkim

nikim19 ty for responding Shannon

janiepop nikim hi there

nikim19 and Rosie

EternumPace>>>) when the seals are broken..."where is that virgin archetypal wound, a cave into which the Father, The Buddha and the one true God cealessly penetrate for the sake of the one true orgasm, in a word..."

EternumPace>>>) "COSMOS"<CC>

janiepop wowowow

ShannonRuth when the seal is broken

ShannonRuth all will remember that love is all

_Stylequeen_ well im out for now later everyone,, rich blessings

ShannonRuth and a big party will follow

janiepop Style bye

janiepop Pen are you here

Rosie1950 goodnight style-take care

_Stylequeen_ wave

ShannonRuth think i will wear pink

janiepop want to ask soemone about a wedding of witches

Rosie1950 hi fool

janiepop witches hands up please

ShannonRuth hello fool

ShannonRuth and alice

ShannonRuth hello

EternumPace>>>) ..."every age has its festival, and the piazza of youth is none different.."<darktower>

ShannonRuth gonna wear pink

2_4-life hey mom...... huggggggssssss ..... love you ..... thought i would come to you and say hi

ShannonRuth hi life

janiepop heeelo witches ?

2_4-life hi everyone

janiepop come in please

ShannonRuth sorry janie

2_4-life ok

EternumPace>>>) "..I picked a Rose one day..to smell the body of the world...to hear the sound of another world..."<darktower>

ShannonRuth whos your mom

Rosie1950 wb Sean

ShannonRuth life/

2_4-life i just wanta give you my site page

janiepop witches ? no witches ?

Pendragon.of.Britain My sister just sent me a picture of him today for avatar purposes, Lady Light, I'll show you the resemblence

EternumPace>>>) i could be your huckleberry, janie, depending

ShannonRuth oh my

ShannonRuth lol

MystHuntr take care all

Pendragon.of.Britain See?

ShannonRuth night myst

Rosie1950 goodnight myst-take care

EternumPace>>>) goodnight Myst

janiepop ok see you all later

Pendragon.of.Britain good night, Janie

EternumPace>>>) good night, Janie

janiepop back later maybe

ShannonRuth night janie sweety pop

nikim19 I can't find anything serious in any room

ShannonRuth op

Rosie1950 goodnight janie

Pendragon.of.Britain nah, he's too young in that photo

2_4-life mom......... it just a personal page ,........ but its got several pages too it and its mine lol.....

Pendragon.of.Britain I identify more with his look now

ShannonRuth lol

EternumPace>>>) "...what rose quietly sits in the ferocious deluge at our galactic centre, slouching t'wards Bethlehem waiting to be picked.."<tower>

Pendragon.of.Britain that picture has to be 20 years old or so

ShannonRuth i second that

ShannonRuth go ahead

ShannonRuth brb

Pendragon.of.Britain nah, he's too pretty in that picture

-The_FOOL lol @ you

Pendragon.of.Britain how about this one, Lady Light?

2_4-life yes i did ......... the ONLY help i had was jody_angel put my guestbook on the home page , and a link back to my page, i couldnt get it.. but she did do that for me

2_4-life cause i didnt know anything about html stuff

2_4-life or what ever it is

Pendragon.of.Britain this one seems a popular avatar with the ladies

-The_FOOL Eye Do not have U drooling....perhaps U need Some schooling

Rosie1950 that one is sexy sean

Pendragon.of.Britain I feel more comfortable in this av, Lady Light

EternumPace>>>) "...Atlas rests on his own eye...but for the strain goes love is mine...i give it back to you,,goodnight, Anna "<tower>

Pendragon.of.Britain but a bit less pretty

2_4-life i had tried about 30 times ,,,,(for real) to put a guestbook on there ,,,,, and i just couldnt , she tried and couldnt either so she made a link you'll see

Pendragon.of.Britain what qualities?

exist4u Anyone here understand why a 5th grade teacher would be asked not to read Harry Potter to her class?

-The_FOOL Eye wonder if U talked 2 him....or did U cut him loose?

2_4-life LOLOL im trying really hard

Pendragon.of.Britain Because fundies don't like it, Exist?

EternumPace>>>) Harry Potter may seem to mature for some children

MLady_Angel nite nite alls blessings to you all !!!!!!

Pendragon.of.Britain good night, milady

EternumPace>>>) HNIWSH, Mlady

exist4u No it is supposedly something to do with religious beliefs.

-The_FOOL its not clear 2 see that U 2 can disAGREE

Pendragon.of.Britain Yes, because the fundies don't like that it might promote Witchcraft, Exist

exist4u What is witchcraft?

Pendragon.of.Britain However, the Witches think it's silly because it doesn't even come close to real Witchcraft

2_4-life well abbie got her mega prog. this am and i told her i would make her some av's , so ill talk to you later .... im going to look for angels and puppies

-The_FOOL U know Ur feelings are true....and Eye believe that he cannot hate U

exist4u Like witches really exist?

EternumPace>>>) Christ exists in witchcraft though doesn't he or she, as a Faery Mab? someone correct me if need be

2_4-life hugggggggsssssss mom .......... love you

Pendragon.of.Britain Witchcraft is one name for a type of earth-centred, Goddess-oriented, Pagan spiritual practice, Exist

Pendragon.of.Britain Yes, Exist, it's a religion

2_4-life yw...... bye

exist4u So is all of fantasy....

2_4-life bye everyone

EternumPace>>>) goodnight, life

Rosie1950 goodnight life

Pendragon.of.Britain No, Eternum, at least not that I've heard, and I've been into it for nearly 40 years now

exist4u And you know what they say - a kid without fantasy... is not a kid.

-The_FOOL Eye can never say ....

-The_FOOL Eyem sure you know the 'way'

EternumPace>>>) Pendragon, my information mayhaps comes from some kindof mythology, perhaps celtic

Pendragon.of.Britain Most Witches think Harry Potter is a great fantasy story, it's just the fundamentalist Christians who are against it

exist4u So lets talk reality vs fantasy.

Pendragon.of.Britain and my practice is centred in the Celtic tradition, Eternum. I know of Mab, but not a Christ connection to her

SunRaven2 eter have scrolled back - and have not heard that Christ exist in witchery - maybe wicca but that is a different area

-The_FOOL when Ur ready 2 deal with Ur feelings inside..perhaps Eye could be the one 2 give U a ride

EternumPace>>>) ok, pendragon. i think i picked up the term in a poem I read. the author likely used the word in a some pseudo-christian sense not intended by the original myth

Pendragon.of.Britain There is a tradition known as Christian Witches, Eternum, and they bring Jesus and YHWH into their pantheon as God figures, I guess they use Mary as the Goddess figure

exist4u And Santa Claus is a witch too.

SunRaven2 lol Santa is a witch??

Pendragon.of.Britain no, Santa Claus actually originated in European shamanic figures

-The_FOOL of these things Eye haven't heard...perhaps U can give me the 'word'

exist4u Well if you follow the logic.

EternumPace>>>) the rub with christian mythology is that it purports to be and in a large sense is historical, lending great weight to imaginitive interpretation and retelling since our heritage is united in fantasy

exist4u And shamanic figures would qulaify as witches, would they not?

-The_FOOL Ur lips are 'sealed'...so the truth won't be reVEALED

Pendragon.of.Britain so his origin is Pagan, certainly . . .

Pendragon.of.Britain they could indeed, exist

exist4u Sheesh, I'm even starting to spell wrong.

exist4u Must be witchcraft.

Pendragon.of.Britain sounds good to me, Exist. I think Santa is a great character

-The_FOOL Eye can see U won't share with me ....So now I choose 2 flee...

exist4u So most of these figures could qualify as witches since we define what witches are.

Pendragon.of.Britain You've not said what you think of this av, lady Light

Pendragon.of.Britain what do you mean by "these figures" exist?

Pendragon.of.Britain this is my favourite Gibb av

exist4u Any figures of the fantastic world as we know it.

Pendragon.of.Britain well, I don't think Donald Duck would qualify

exist4u Why not?

Velvt.)) hi wv, hi everyone

Rosie1950 hi velvt

Pendragon.of.Britain what do you know of his spirituality, exist?

exist4u Velvt!

SunRaven2 gnite all - ({{{We all come from the Goddess, and to her we shall return. Like a drop of rain flowing to the ocean}}}(Marduk)

Velvt.)) tc, sun

exist4u The same as I know of all other fantasy figures.

Pendragon.of.Britain Hullo Velvt, m'dear

Velvt.)) how are you tonight, sean?

Pendragon.of.Britain told you, Lady Light, water is good stuff

exist4u It doesn't exist

EternumPace>>>) I took the liberty of using online encarta. "Mab, celtic god of light that mediates between earthly and divine" does that sound kosher, Pendragon?

Pendragon.of.Britain do you mean Mabon, Eternum?

EternumPace>>>) it just says "Mab" pendragon, is Mabon another variation?

exist4u Fantasy is the creation of mankind.

Pendragon.of.Britain ack, my VP is acting up tonight . . . it won't type in the box very well

Pendragon.of.Britain Mab is the Queen of the Faeries

Velvt.)) that sounds rather rigid, exist... what we call fantasy could sometimes be an expression of perceptions that don't fit into our normal reality, and yet are real

EternumPace>>>) yeah. that was the definition i think I heard before. queen of the faeries

Velvt.)) sean, click on reload stop... i've had that problem with it lately at times

exist4u Like what velvt?

Pendragon.of.Britain no, I don't think so, Lady Light, it's acting as though I'm getting an IM, and not typing in this tab

EternumPace>>>) I also read that the Irish (of some age or other) believe the faeries were some kind of fallen angels, dragged by Lucifer into the middle world

Pendragon.of.Britain thanks, Velvt

Pendragon.of.Britain seems to have helped

Velvt.)) sean, it's the ad reloads still, messing with your cursor

Pendragon.of.Britain aah, thanks, Velvt

Pendragon.of.Britain but I don't see any ads

Velvt.)) exist, such as the fae, for instance. or the other woodland spirits... who is to say they aren't some true beings but not apparant in our normal everyday urban/suburban lives?

Pendragon.of.Britain The Celtic Christians believed that the faeries were the spirits of the Pagan dead, eternum, not bad enough to go to hell, but not Christian and so could not go to heaven

Velvt.)) i know sean, but the mechanism for the ads is still working

Pendragon.of.Britain and since Paganism is on the rise . . . be prepared for a rebirth of a lot of the Sidhe (the Gaelic term for faeries)

Pendragon.of.Britain I think you're right, Velvt, thank you

Velvt.)) yvw

Pendragon.of.Britain and this also fits in well with the Celtic belief in the afterlife, that when we die, we go to the Summerland, and that's also where the Sidhe live

Rosie1950 yes ty velvt- I have thatproblem too

exist4u O.K., granted - the fantastic, though never substantiated, could exist. Just like we may not really exist. That is for the philosophers to determine.

Pendragon.of.Britain I've not had that problem before tonight, Velvt

EternumPace>>>) I heard that American, the word, had some kind of Gothic origin meaning "new kingdom, of heaven"

Velvt.)) it feels odd to be wearing this av... this and a closeup of her face were about the only ones i wore for a long time, but i haven't much since then

Pendragon.of.Britain Exist. Witches, often now called Wiccans, are humans of a specific spiritual path. They are not fantasy creatures, neither were prehistoric shamans

exist4u But in the meantime, I think it would be prudent to let a 5th grade teacher read the Harry Potter Book to her class - especially since 23 out of 24 parents agree to let her.

Velvt.)) exist4U, the existance of god isn't substantiated in any way to meet the requirements for proof to all, it's the same with any other nonphysical manifestation

EternumPace>>>) we have been seeing a lot of Faerie and Angel interest on the rise

Pendragon.of.Britain I think so as well, Exist, and the one parent who doesn't like it can take her/his kid out of class for that

EternumPace>>>) velvt, some people might argue that Jesus was God incarnate

exist4u Yes, Velvt.)), - so do you beleive in God?

Velvt.)) of course, eternum, but it can't be proven to the satisfaction of all, and that is my point

Velvt.)) yes exist, i do, and in other spiritual beings also, including ourselves as soul

exist4u I agree Pendragon

Velvt.)) btw, eternum, i thought america came from americus vespucci... a co-discoverer of this continent

Pendragon.of.Britain brb

EternumPace>>>) that is an interesting point, valid of course, from an emprical standpoint, i'm guessing you enjoy following the scientific method for divining reality? *grin

Velvt.)) myself, eternum? i am both spiritual and scientific... i see no conflict between them as approaches to discovering reality

EternumPace>>>) Americus Vespucci, that could be

EternumPace>>>) vevlt, but you seem inclined to favour empiricism in deciding what is substantial

exist4u But velvt, I can propose a discussion whereby I can show that beings do not exist and either does God. The point is that faith is involved, and as long as faith is involved,

exist4u it is simply a personal thing

Velvt.)) perhaps we haven't delved very far into my spiritual life, then, eternum... and empiricism is the basis for everything anyway, IMO... especially the spiritual, i'd say.

EternumPace>>>) oh. i see, velvt, you said God could not be proven to satisfaction of all, not that it could not be proven to some. my mistake

Velvt.)) exist, yes it is very personal. but exist, you can't prove god doesn't exist, either

Velvt.)) eternum, i think our proofs are in our individual perceptions and experiences

exist4u God is not a matter of proof or disproof.

Velvt.)) isn't that what i've been saying, exist?

EternumPace>>>) to a large extent, sure, Velvt.)) i'll agree with that, but there is a public consensus involved as well. that interests me with regard to your assertion of the nature of God's provability

Velvt.)) how so, eternum?

EternumPace>>>) history has shown us that consensus reality need not meet the requirements for "proof"

EternumPace>>>) jung, asserted, for instance, that we are biologically religious and pathologically public in how we expressed such an instinct. that our perception of consensus reality were isomorphic in pattern to

EternumPace>>>) our personal beliefs

Cassandra7777 did anyone else see the rainbow around the moon tonight?

Velvt.)) no cassandra... is it cold where you are?

EternumPace>>>) i think Nietszche referred to this phenomena, which is as provable as the sun as deus ex machina

Cassandra7777 yep. a bit nippley

Rosie1950 hi cassandra

exist4u Maybe, but I still say that as long as proof or disproof is impossible, Harry Potter should be considered a normal part of the human experience.

WVLADY-Light_ hello Cassandra & nope I haven't been out

Cassandra7777 hi rosie and wv

Rosie1950 hi cypher

_-Cypher-_ harry potter again?

_-Cypher-_ hui rosie

_-Cypher-_ hi

Cassandra7777 I liked the talking hat

Velvt.)) lol cass... it's ice crystals in the air, between you and the moon, that you are seeing... beautiful, isn't it?

WVLADY-Light_ Cypher!!!!!!!!! huggerssssss

Pendragon.of.Britain would you all excuse me, I've a guest in my realm

EternumPace>>>) i met an atheist the other day who made quite a reasonable assertion that God was in the human brain

Pendragon.of.Britain I'll see you later folks

_-Cypher-_ WV (((HUGS))))

Pendragon.of.Britain MP

Velvt.)) sure sean

Cassandra7777 yes Velvt.))...never saw all the rainbow colors before though

WVLADY-Light_ lol ...will it ever die..Cypher?

Velvt.)) hey cypher

_-Cypher-_ mp pen

WVLADY-Light_ MP Sean..take care

Cassandra7777 I don't know if that means it's really cold so there is more ice or what

_-Cypher-_ hi vel

Cassandra7777 I don't know how to photograph it, but I took notes so I could paint it

exist4u And thanks velvt - your always easy to discuss with.

Velvt.)) eternum, there is a popular book out now, i forget the name of it, but it's about the 'god gene'... saying we are hardwired to believe in god, basically

Velvt.)) ty exist... i like to say i'm easy, but it's taken wrong so often LOL

EternumPace>>>) that sounds fascinating, velvt

exist4u hah!

_-Cypher-_ well the near death experience can be duplicated with drugs and bio feedback

Velvt.)) eternum, even if it's true, that doesn't mean that god doesn't exist, that it's just some blip in our physical makeup.

WVLADY-Light_ welp gonna take a break here ..I be tired

Velvt.)) bye wv

_-Cypher-_ nite WV

EternumPace>>>) ice crystals around the moon, how holy

WVLADY-Light_ nites folks & take care ((((........Merry Part until we Merry Meet again & Blessed Be........)(dsf)))

WVLADY-Light_ nite Velvt & Cypher

Cassandra7777 mp wv

Rosie1950 goodnight wvlady-take care

Velvt.)) i had an interesting first experience with sun dogs... rainbows around the sun.... gave me the shivers at the time

WVLADY-Light_ mp..Cassandra & somehow I would love to see that painting when you finish

WVLADY-Light_ nite Rosie..you too hon

Cassandra7777 : )

EternumPace>>>) theres seem to be a lot of existential falacies running around our collective subconscious regarding the nature of biologic versus metaphysics

_-Cypher-_ falicies?

_-Cypher-_ such as?

Velvt.)) <waiting for examples from eternum>

EternumPace>>>) DMT or the white light drug produced by the brain has been sythesized and led many to new understandings of all that is "beyond" this world and, at once, deeply ingrained within the world

EternumPace>>>) the body is, in ancient times and still today in many cultures,a doorway to divine experience

_-Cypher-_ that may be true but the fact that the experience exists at all begs the question as to why it exists

EternumPace>>>) good question, Cypher. any ideas?

Velvt.)) yes...to explain somethink as biochemistry doesn't say WHY our biochemistry is set up that way... it could be a fluke or it could be a divine gateway

_-Cypher-_ perhaps as a way to retain the consciousness of the individual during the bodies dying proccess...a kind of shock buffer

exist4u just like a character does not know what a sentence is, we as humans cannot fathom that collection which is our whole.

_-Cypher-_ its interesting that prey naimals go into shock very easily. a kind of mercy

EternumPace>>>) what i mean by existential falacy is simply this: if the body is a conscious structure of our consciousness it NECESSARILY will tell us of its metaphysically anteriority, its precedents in dimension

Velvt.)) although we get hints and clues and tastes, i think, exist

_-Cypher-_ animals

Velvt.)) eternum, i think i see your point now, but my brain is so fuzzy tonight that i'm having trouble handling some of your words :)

EternumPace>>>) exist, that strikes me as extremely insightful

exist4u Yes, just like we know that a shadow in two dimensions represents something in three dimensions. But if we see a three dimensions, we don't know what it is a shadow of...

Cassandra7777 It's not just you velvt, that sentence makes my brain hurt

Velvt.)) :)

Velvt.)) so add fuzziness on top of it, cass

_-Cypher-_ perhaps there is no difference between physical and metaphysical. maybe its just what one is used to as "normal"

Velvt.)) oh, i love that imagery, exist

EternumPace>>>) exist, i would like it if that reasoning carried us into our haven of knowledge, language :-)

Cassandra7777 some of us percieve things that others do not see.

Velvt.)) cypher, i certainly think they are at least a continuum

Velvt.)) hey Dorsal>>>

Dorsal>>> :) Hello, Velvt.))

Rosie1950 hi Dorsal>>>

Velvt.)) if i would have known you were coming i would have been ready with the ropes, dor :)

Dorsal>>> Hi, Rosie.

_-Cypher-_ sure. i believe in continuance

Velvt.)) dor, i think you will enjoy this discussion

Dorsal>>> I haven't viewed your av yet, so I will see whatever you would like, Velvt.))

_-Cypher-_ hi dor

Dorsal>>> I was watching for a bit, Velvt.)) It's why I entered.

Velvt.)) ohhhhhhh... hang on then, until i tell you to look

Dorsal>>> hi, cypher.

Velvt.)) cool

EternumPace>>>) if one breaks down a sentence like a scultpure one can "digitize" it into positive and negative space

exist4u What do you mean eter?

_-Cypher-_ but perhaps from a different angle this reality would seem metaphysical

Dorsal>>> exist, are you familiar with Ouspensky? he worked a lot with dimensions and shadows of dimensions in an attempt to get an understanding of 4 dimensional objects.

Velvt.)) ok dor... this isn't my favorite bettie shot, but it has ropes :)

Dorsal>>> :) k, Velvt.))

_-Cypher-_ lol bettie page

_-Cypher-_ my friend kind of looks like bettie

Cassandra7777 maybe Dorsal>>> should meet bettipagelover

exist4u But I bet he did not get a better understanding of four dimensional objects.

EternumPace>>>) I mean there is a phenomenology to consciousnes as well as an "event horizon" which itself produces information much like a blackholed does, incidentally

Velvt.)) does she have that sweetness, cypher?

Dorsal>>> yup, ropes. you're taste is excellent, Velvt.)) As you say, the other is better even without the ropes.

Cassandra7777 betti page is about 75

Dorsal>>> He felt he had, exist. but, hmm

_-Cypher-_ yeah...can be bad and innocent at the same time

_-Cypher-_ a blackhole produces?

Velvt.)) i have a couple of beautiful ones of her dor... you'll see them eventually

Dorsal>>> the problem is you get a better understanding of euclidean four dimensional objects; if relativity is right, the 4 dimensions of note are not euclidean.

Velvt.)) i'll brb

Dorsal>>> but by noting, for example, that a line is generated by moving a point in a direction not available to it as a point, and that a surface is generated by moving it in a direction not available to it as a surface, an a solid object (3D) is made by moving a

EternumPace>>>) Stephen Hawking showed that a blackhole radiates, not from its interior, but as a side effect of the particles moving into it heating up to such high tempereatures. still, the blachole system is effec

exist4u Because the bottom line is that we as humans (at least I believe) have no comprehension of anything but our own reality. We may be able to model higher realities mathematically,

exist4u but mathematics is just another language we use to understand ourselves.

EternumPace>>>) ting something we can measure

Dorsal>>> surface in a direction not available to it as a surface,

EternumPace>>>) this is metaphysical in its own way

Dorsal>>> you end up seeing that a four dimensional object is made by moving a solid object in a direction not available to it as a 3D object.

_-Cypher-_ thanx pace. good info

Dorsal>>> :) one can ponder that for quite a while if so inclined.

exist4u I agree Dorsal>>>, and its fairly theraputic for me.

Dorsal>>> We can do much better than the character in the sentence.

Dorsal>>> Math is a beautiful thing. It can describes things beyond our intuition and beyond our instinctive logic and it is rigorous and, if done correctly (physics) can be verified as to its veracity.

_-Cypher-_ terrible at math

exist4u But it is still a creation of mankind. And in that respect can only model what we can understand.

_-Cypher-_ i watch this vid on tetrahydral geometry and loved it but more felt it intuitvely than understood any of those long equations

EternumPace>>>) if we treat the character in the sentence as a blackhole or even just a phenomena, we might choose to believe that there is more informatio in it than meets the eye

Dorsal>>> No, it can model what we do not understand. that is clear from quantum mechanics.

Dorsal>>> math may be more a discovery than an invention, frankly.

EternumPace>>>) perhaps the sentence is in the character

exist4u But we can understand quantum mechanics - maybe we do not right now, but that doesn't mean we cannot.

Dorsal>>> The point is we do not, and yet it is described beautifully by math.

_-Cypher-_ gotta go to sleep. love yas everyOne

Dorsal>>> nite, cypher.

exist4u It is proposed by math.

EternumPace>>>) perhaps language belies our own rich spatial intelligence of posinegative space

Dorsal>>> In fact, Neils Bohr said, and more recently Feynman echoed the sentiment, "if quantum mechanics doesn't confuse you, you don't understand it."

exist4u And it will be (along with the mathematics) adjusted accordingly as we understand it more fully.

Dorsal>>> The reality described by quantum mechanics doesn't even have particularly useful metaphors in our daily experience. It is that foreign. yet the equations predict beautifully 'what happens' under a variety of conditions.

EternumPace>>>) take night and day. how do we come to "know" the sun will rise again, and how did or do we share that information. as a poetry prof once told me, sometimes you have to get dumb to get smart

exist4u And so did newton's geometry describe very nicely what we see happening. But it did not suffice.

Dorsal>>> Yes, but Newton's geometry was pretty intuitive. It could be explained fairly well and correlated with our experience and intuition to a large extent.

Dorsal>>> Quamtum mechanics does not.

Velvt.)) back

Rosie1950 wb

Velvt.)) dor, shamanism and quantum mechanics are extremely compatible

Dorsal>>> My main point, I guess, is that our 'tools' (if you insist on that term) can drag us to places we could not anticipate, nor even really fathom; yet these places appear to be reality.

EternumPace>>>) what do we mean, for instance, when we say that another similar event will happen "because" it happened before?

Dorsal>>> How so, velvt?

exist4u But I guess my point is that mathematics is a language we use, not an entity of its own.

Velvt.)) they have a more or less subjective, malleable reality as their core, correct?

Dorsal>>> induction, etern. It's just a good bet, that's all.

EternumPace>>>) Dorsal>>>, it might surprise you to know that earlier humans, much earlier than us, could have possessed much greater understanding than we

Velvt.)) and they require something other than our normal physical sentences to perceive and experience

Velvt.)) yikes

Velvt.)) senses, not sentences

Dorsal>>> language, fine, but it doesn't simply describe our experience. It is bigger than that.

Velvt.)) <grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr>

exist4u character in the sentence? lol

Dorsal>>> more philosophically, in my opinion, numbers "exist". Like mass and energy. They are not inventions any more than mass and energy. This idea is based primarily on the necessity of numbers for describing the world.

Dorsal>>> Yes, etern, it would surprise me.

EternumPace>>>) did we count before we spoke?

Velvt.)) my hunch <sense> is that mathmatics is what both dor and exist are saying... it is a tool with extensive and extending possiblilites that still is a product of our basic human framework of reality

exist4u Yes, we could exist fine without numbers of any kind.

Dorsal>>> No, we spoke first, but almost the first written language was numbers for keeping track of 'stuff'.

Dorsal>>> well, in a sense we counted first, in terms of recognizing sets.

Dorsal>>> set theory is the essence of primordial math.

Dorsal>>> argh, someone stop me.

EternumPace>>>) they have found counting sticks with notches

exist4u No

Velvt.)) dor how do you know that about the spoken language?

Dorsal>>> yes, etern, exactly.

Velvt.)) i would think it was an elaboration of a warning call made by many other species, but one that gave great detail

Dorsal>>> No, one cannot describe the world in any useful way without using sets/numbers. Cultures vary only in the sophistication of their numbers, but all count.

exist4u That is our experience, anyway.

EternumPace>>>) the most obvious reason to me, why we can say the sun will rise tomorrow is because something somewhere is sympathetic to our wish that it does lol

Dorsal>>> eh, velvt, I don't know really about language/number issue in terms of what first. What is clear is that recognizing differences between two of a thing and one of thing is an extremely fundamental thing, and thewords for those numbers are ancient.

Velvt.)) so if the sun 'stands still' then someone wished harder for that? :)

Dorsal>>> We say the sun will rise tomorrow because it has for so long. I don't see a puzzle in that.

EternumPace>>>) you make a very persuasive arguement with which I agree, Dorsal>>>

Velvt.)) he's good at that

exist4u Yes, faith is strong. But we could possibly wake up tomorrow to find that the sun does not rise.

Velvt.)) i love seeing him challenged, though

Dorsal>>> :) etern. thx

Velvt.)) too bad i can't do it more often <if at all>

EternumPace>>>) what I am saying, in modern parlance, is we should try thinking like an apeman

Velvt.)) sexy, cass

exist4u But I'm all for beleiving that, in general the sun will rise in the morning.

Dorsal>>> yes, exist, it might not rise, but I do not think our expectations would be at the heart of it.

EternumPace>>>) did an apeman know the sun would rise tomorrow?

Cassandra7777 drago helped me get PSP again

Cassandra7777 thanks velvt

Velvt.)) cool... i may need it so i'll have to be sure to remember that

Velvt.)) i could shed the ropes, here... only dor will have to go on seeing them if he looks :)

exist4u And I'm all for being able to read Harry Potter to a 5th grade class without remorse.

Velvt.)) hey janie

Dorsal>>> heheh exist.

EternumPace>>>) for reasons that should be apparent, our knowing is linked to our will to survive, we should ackowledge that, even in the creature comforts of the 21st century

janiepop afternoon

janiepop Dorsal>>> ltns

Cassandra7777 to deny a child a chance to use his imagination is a serious crime in my opinion

Dorsal>>> Hiya janie.

Rosie1950 wb janie

exist4u Which was the original issue I brought up here today, btw

janiepop Cass agree

Cassandra7777 my 6th grade teacher read us the Hobbit, I don't recall anyone getting out of shape over it

Cassandra7777 hi janie

Velvt.)) i couldn't agree more, cass...and that is at the heart of my objection to montessori education, more or less

janiepop out of shape ?

Cassandra7777 well Harry Potter and the Hobbit are the same genre of stories.

Cassandra7777 I wouldn't deprive children of them

janiepop apparently from what I've heard the teachers and librarians are thrilled that kids are reading again

janiepop you know READ

exist4u And which led into some incredibly satisfying (mathematics related) dialogue with all of you (thanks Dorsal>>>). But its time to go.

Dorsal>>> It was fun, exist. take care.

Velvt.)) be well, exist

janiepop miised the maths caht ..dang

EternumPace>>>) goodnight exist

exist4u See you... or I should say... bye.

Rosie1950 goodnight exit-take care

Cassandra7777 I know a storyteller, and the librarians are so afraid that a story will be politically incorrect or offen a Christian, that they want to tell her what stories

Cassandra7777 to tell or not tell.

Velvt.)) it's been far ranging, janie... quite a challenge for the likes of me in many ways

Velvt.)) yikes, cass

Velvt.)) the list of banned books, especially in the south, is a horror also

janiepop far ranging ...were there hens involve vel ?

Velvt.)) i mean, the diary of anne frank, for crying out lod

Velvt.)) oud

Cassandra7777 even the Diary of Anne Frank was banned.

Dorsal>>> Why is the diary of anne frank banned?

Velvt.)) no, we didn't get as far as the chicken/egg thing janie

janiepop look I am sorry to have to tell you this

Dorsal>>> and is it really?

Cassandra7777 and Shel Silverstein had been banned from time to time

Velvt.)) dor, because anne says something to the effect that it makes no difference what religion a person is

Dorsal>>> um, yeah, so even if you don't agree with that, it's just what a girl in a closet thought. Why is it banned?

EternumPace>>>) excuse me for not letting this go, but what if there is information in "the sun will rise", information so important whole religions rose up around it

Velvt.)) because it might tempt other children to think it

Velvt.)) isn't there, etern? the sun dieties, etc?

janiepop but often when I hear these stories about banned books etc in the US it amazes me

EternumPace>>>) sun gods, sure

Dorsal>>> heheh I see. What an odd thing. Is it really banned in the entire south? That seems so hard to believe.

Velvt.)) not as much as it horrifies me, janie

Velvt.)) no dor, not the entire south, but only in the south as far as i know

Cassandra7777 the US is odd.....on one hand they are very puritanical, but at the same time they use sex to sell everything.

vforge83 salam to every one

Dorsal>>> I think there are religions based on the sun and its behavior, etern. I think.

Velvt.)) hi vf

janiepop vel we are led to belive that the US is in good shape ..is this wrong ??

Velvt.)) cass, if we weren't puritanical, then sex wouldn't sell things, see?

janiepop is the south very diffrent still or wot ?

Dorsal>>> so where is it banned? I am curious. What city does not allow anne frank to be read in schools?

EternumPace>>>) if religiousness says one thing to me, it is that there is much more information possessed by somoe part of each of us than even our greatest shamans allow us to give voice to

Velvt.)) depends on your perspective and standards, i guess, janie

Velvt.)) oh crud, dor, i don't remember...maybe cass does

vforge83 how is every one

Cassandra7777 the parents are all offended about Brittany Spears, but what has she done that is any different than Cher or Madonna?

janiepop vel you have a very big moral moronity it seems

EternumPace>>>) in many ways, aren't we still carving notches on sticks?

Velvt.)) my swiss cheese brain and your enquiring mind just don't work together very well, dor

Dorsal>>> I think they were offended by Madonna too.

Cassandra7777 bans come and go Dorsal>>>.

Velvt.)) a very vocal one, anyway, janie, so the money people/advertisers listen to them to shut them up

Dorsal>>> Yes, etern. Counting.

janiepop constantly wondering about the US

Velvt.)) me too, janie

Dorsal>>> I think Brittany is changing her name to "Pepsi's Brittany Spears".

Cassandra7777 in the first place, I don't find nudity offensive.....so it doesn't matter to me if Brittany wears nothing

Velvt.)) i am particularily horrified at what cheney said about the military tribunals

EternumPace>>>) Counting. yeah, Dorsal>>>. I mean each or our years figures around the birth of christ "by consensus reality" if not by personal belief. science and religion right at the beginning

Dorsal>>> well, it depends on who is nude. . .

vforge83 any one knows about islam

janiepop vel just as well you're here ..are you considered anti american

Dorsal>>> What did Cheney say that horrified you, velvt?

janiepop it's an oft used phrase

Velvt.)) some say so, janie, others would think i'm very much a concerned patriot :)

Dorsal>>> Not too much really, vforg.

janiepop yes vel I undersatnd the diff

vforge83 please talk to me

Cassandra7777 who VF?

janiepop vforge I would but I'm about to go for a swim

vforge83 i just like to know about islam

janiepop sorry gotta go , see you later ..take care

Velvt.)) dor, he said that if/when osama bin laden is captured and tried, he doesn't deserve a civil trial, that he has no rights, not even those of a prisoner of war. his reasoning appears to be that there isn't a real war, so he's ours to do with as we will. i find that attitude terrible

Velvt.)) tc, janie

vforge83 have gratet swim

KatieCam is anyone here willing to pray for a stranger?

EternumPace>>>) it is almost as though some giant computer is marking off days with a pulse we only fully recognize in our subconscious and perhaps only outwardly in the larger patterns and or myths of our global...

Velvt.)) katie, i will gladly offer up the one prayer i say for anyone

Cassandra7777 there is a song out by a group called the Chambermaids that quotes a fireman saying Bin Laden can kiss his royal Irish ass.

EternumPace>>>) global culture, be it science, culture itself, faith, media

Velvt.)) maybe bin laden is partially doing us a sort of service... making some of our disgusting traits more apparent

KatieCam i need someone to pray that my husband comes home safe

Cassandra7777 Dorsal>>>, what the heck is that

Dorsal>>> I hadn't heard that aspect of it, vel (not a real war). I'm not sure I am upset about the idea ofa military tribunal, but it depends on the rules. Our military personnel are tried by different system than civilian law, and it seems to be fairly just,

EternumPace>>>) in other words, a symathetic iconology, a cosmic nerve center

Dorsal>>> as far as I know.

Velvt.)) katie, why do you need someone to pray for that, can't you pray it?

Dorsal>>> But, the devil is in the details. We must await the procedures of the tribunal.

KatieCam i don't think god listens to me anymore

EternumPace>>>) what if existence, the whole of it, seen and unseen literally and metaphorically, is consensus?

Velvt.)) dor, that part, the 'not a real war', is my rationalizing why cheney would say he doesn't have the rights of a prisoner of war.... and he DID say that

EternumPace>>>) then we know the "sun will rise" because we have communicated it, it is our consensus that it will

Cassandra7777 Bush declared us at war on Sept 11 I believe

Velvt.)) god listens to everyone just the same, katie... really does

EternumPace>>>) and, then, who are WE??

Velvt.)) yes, cass, and bush has no authority to declare war... i don't recall the congress ever declaring it

Dorsal>>> etern, the idea that there is not 'real' world just isn't that useful in my opinion. The idea that world used to be flat but then snapped into a sphere when the proper measures were done seems too silly to take seriously. I mean, it's cool in college on

KatieCam even those who aren't sure they believe in him?

Dorsal>>> mescaline.

Dorsal>>> But if carried through, unsatisfying.

Velvt.)) yep, kaite... god hears

Cassandra7777 at any rate, he's our commander in chief, so he should have a talk with Chaney

EternumPace>>>) lol, Dorsal>>>. i get your point and your joke

Dorsal>>> Well, I agree, that seems wrong, Velvt.)) He should have prisoner of war rights I htink, well, unless that has some legal meaning I am not aware of that prohibits the use of a military tribunal.

Dorsal>>> heheh etern. k.

Velvt.)) katie, personally i do hope your husband stays safe, but the prayer i say is asking for help for each of us in having the wisdom and insight to accept that what happens is for the best of us all

Cassandra7777 has anyone noticed the media switched from saying 'terrorist attacks' to terror attacks about a week ago?

EternumPace>>>) but Dorsal>>>, i don't think we have to jump off the good ship reality to postulate deeper levels to our existence per our involvement in how matter organizes itself

Velvt.)) no i didn't cass, but i don't watch much of anything

EternumPace>>>) good point, Cass.

Cassandra7777 I feel this whole war is very manipulated by the media

Dorsal>>> some media have switched from Americas war on terror to the worlds war on terror also.

Velvt.)) and by the politicos

Cassandra7777 or the media is manipulated by the govt.

Velvt.)) i think they have gone skipping off together, cass... happy as larks at the support and attention they are getting

Dorsal>>> Yes, so on the ship reality, in what sense do you mean our involvement organizes matter?

EternumPace>>>) i personally am satisfied with how the media has conveyed news and comfort to me

Dorsal>>> Bush's recent remarks about Iraq are of concern to me. Dicey proposition.

Cassandra7777 This isn't a Christan vs. Moslem war, but you'd never know that by all the God Bless America signs littering the area

EternumPace>>>) Dorsal>>>, what if culture in every form of knowing, is a play about our shared history with matter and energy?

Velvt.)) what are they, dor, in a nutshell, abbreviated

Cassandra7777 I think Bush is chomping at the bit to go after Iraq

Dorsal>>> Both Christian and Muslims believe in God, cass.

EternumPace>>>) Dorsal>>>, i think years of Star Trek NG are finally paying off

Cassandra7777 I doubt they believe in the same god

Cassandra7777 that is part of the problem

Dorsal>>> velvt, mostly posturing that now any country developing weapons of mass destruction to be used by terrorists may be fair game in the sense that Afghanistan is.

Dorsal>>> heheh etern. <nod>

Velvt.)) i see... "Shrub... Emperor of the World" eh?

EternumPace>>>) does anybody know if America has spoken with Iraq at all?

Cassandra7777 politics are really not my forte

Velvt.)) i detest them, cass

Dorsal>>> We have been 'speaking' with Iraq ever sense we kicked their ass, trying to examine their weapon potential, etc.

Velvt.)) but you can only avoid them so much

Cassandra7777 I'm more of a 'live and let live' person

Dorsal>>> since

EternumPace>>>) will America attack Iraq soon?

Dorsal>>> I doubt it, etern. I don't know though. I think

Cassandra7777 my gut instinct is yes

Cassandra7777 Bush has mentioned attacking Iraq

Dorsal>>> we may turn up the rhetoric about the inspections being part of the agreed to deal at the end of Persian Gulf war by the Iraqi's and

EternumPace>>>) I have heard a couple "analysts" say early on that Laden had to have had a state backing him and his plans

Dorsal>>> that they have to let inspectors in or we will up the military action. I assume that is how it will be done if it cannot be successfully negotiated at level of UN.

Dorsal>>> I'm just guessing though.

Velvt.)) what if the fundies are right, and this is the beginning of the end times... but it is the end times of the USA as a nation that can hold itself proudly in the world?

EternumPace>>>) one final note regarding the play of the universe and our part in it: if we are always acting out our unity with matter, in every fibre of us, then our science would explain the universe because every

Dorsal>>> We also may get more aggressive wrt CIA type involvement in aiding opposition within Iraq.

EternumPace>>>) everything is a form of explication..

Cassandra7777 the fundies say that everytime the US gets in a war

Cassandra7777 they wish

Velvt.)) Dorsal>>>, the first legal act after bush got elected was a rescinding of former presidential orders prohibiting the CIA from assasinating or being involved in the assasination of foreign leaders

EternumPace>>>) my economics teacher said economics was an art of nothing. perhaps that is politics too

Dorsal>>> <nod> etern, it seems plausible that our intimate relationship with the universe translates into our ability to understand it to some extent. Einstein said, "The most amazing thing about the universe is that we can understand it at all."

Dorsal>>> Physicists often express surprise that the math works so well.

EternumPace>>>) symmetry. yes, Dorsal>>>, i see waht you mean. even if one doesn't know any math, we can also me impressed by the utter symmtery of things

Dorsal>>> I think that rescinding happened after 9/11 Velvt.)) not his first after elected. still, he did it.

Velvt.)) nope, it was right after he took office

Velvt.)) within two weeks

Velvt.)) i tried to spread the info around at the time

Cassandra7777 I think females should lead the world

Dorsal>>> Really? I didn't know that. It was only mentioned in context of 9/11 when I heard it, Velvt.))

Cassandra7777 we don't have the 'bash the enemy ' testosterone

EternumPace>>>) i think they should air mork and mindy on every station in the middle east then send in the EXADORS

OG_BubbleGrrrl i agree with you cassandra

Velvt.)) yes, cass... we want to negotiate, not force... we want a meeting of the minds, not an overpowering

Dorsal>>> in any case, the CIA needed some help. They ahve had hands tied to some extent wrt getting agents etc. Clinton had started some changes.

Cassandra7777 the problem is part of testosterone is what gives men the aggression to persue politics.

Dorsal>>> It is not clear to me that a meeting of the minds is an option with bin Laden and al Qaeda.

OG_BubbleGrrrl not just politics but domination and control

Velvt.)) dor, i saw war coming then... and here it is, no surprise. he stacked his cabinet with military people and gave the CIA authority to kill foreign leaders... it's just a clear sign of where we were headed, i think

Cassandra7777 You can't have a rational conversation with a maniac.

Dorsal>>> I'm sorry, but I do not believe Bush cabinet choices caused the WTC attack. I am glad we have people who are qualified to handle it though.

Cassandra7777 OG....the older I get, them more I see how women are controlled and manipulated

Velvt.)) i didn't say they caused it

OG_BubbleGrrrl but we shouldn't allow it as much as we do

Dorsal>>> I am glad we have people who are qualified to handle it.

Cassandra7777 exactly, which is why we are controlled and manipulated

OG_BubbleGrrrl but to be an independant woman has certain undesirable connotations

Velvt.)) undesirable by the patriarchy OG

EternumPace>>>) Society is everywhere replete with the potential for conflict. its amazing to me no one has dropped the big one yet

Cassandra7777 my friend just broke up with a man after 2 months, because when they went on vacation, he copped an attitude when she wanted to drive

OG_BubbleGrrrl men cop attitudes when they feel threatened

OG_BubbleGrrrl they have a hard time conceiving of productive compromises

Dorsal>>> with respect to women being less aggressive, eh, perhaps some people actually have to have their children die before acting whereas others prefer to see it coming and try to prevent it. Every form of refuge has its price.

Cassandra7777 She works 6 days a week as a nurse, she doesn't need a man to support her, and she was so offended she broke up

Velvt.)) ever notice male doctors push HRT more than female doctors do? don't you think there's a reason for that?

Dorsal>>> men are definitely different though, aggressive, unnecessary risks, etc. testicular, yup.

EternumPace>>>) hey, you are right, ladies, but men have a different musculature, they have different brains. if you are so smart, design a man pill that makes us think like you do. *grin

EternumPace>>>) i would take that pill

Velvt.)) ugh eternum... if i could design a pill, it would simply be one to allow men to stop being so damned afraid all the time

Dorsal>>> on the other hand, it's useful for some stuff. Did I mention every form of refuge has its price. That's the wisdom of the Eagles there.

Cassandra7777 you just don't hear of women getting killed in drag racing accidents

Velvt.)) insecure

Dorsal>>> <getting life advice from rock songs now>

EternumPace>>>) rock is life

EternumPace>>>) "you can check out, but you can...never leave" <hotel california>

Rosie1950 (If you want then start to laugh, if you must then start to cry. (Arctik&Maiden))

Rosie1950 (Be yourself, don't hide....just believe in destiny. (Arctik&Maiden))

Rosie1950 (Don't care what people say...just follow your own way. (Arctik&Maiden))

Cassandra7777 music changes politics

Rosie1950 (Don't give up and use the chance to return to innocence. (Arctik&Maiden))

OG_BubbleGrrrl poltics changes music.........

Dorsal>>> what is HRT, btw?

Rosie1950 sory someone mentioned music :)

EternumPace>>>) yeah. what is HRT?

Velvt.)) lol dor, i was wondering if anyone knew what i meant or just didn't care

Dorsal>>> :>

Velvt.)) Hormone Replacement Therapy... keep the estrogen up so women stay womanly

Dorsal>>> I see. for menopause?

Velvt.)) = woman stay as similar as possible to their childbearing, sexy years

Cassandra7777 Every day I feel myself lapsing into being a mindless helpless female like my mother, and I fight it all the time

Velvt.)) menopause, natural or artificial

Rosie1950 hi redeemed

Dorsal>>> I didn't know there was difference in recommendations as a function of gender. Women I know seem to want it even when advised by some against it.

Velvt.)) how old are you cass?

EternumPace>>>) vevlt, i think you are ascribing to weakness what is more likely caused by ignorance. not to say the two are all that different, but neither is absolute albeit frustrating

Cassandra7777 43

Velvt.)) patriarchy, dor

--Redeemed-- hello Rosie,,,hope your day was good,,!!

Velvt.)) i don't know what you mean, eternum

Dorsal>>> still, I used to be more or less against HRT for menopause; recently I've had to rethink it based on theories of aging.

Dorsal>>> aging is pretty interesting.

EternumPace>>>) velvt, whatever we know about men, then can learn

Rosie1950 yes ty redeemed- hope yours was also

Cassandra7777 aging sucks

OG_BubbleGrrrl weakness is closer to "knowing" what you should do......and not doing it due to exterior forces of environment

Dorsal>>> it seems to me, used to seem to me, that menopause is natural so why tend to 'treat' it?

EternumPace>>>) i think men menstruate for instance

OG_BubbleGrrrl loss of bone marrow is something menopause can accelerate

Velvt.)) really? how, when and where?

Dorsal>>> wow, etern, I must be pregnant!

Cassandra7777 if you age, and you vision gets impaired, wouldn't you do something about it?

OG_BubbleGrrrl so women take supplements to asist in deteriorating bone mass.........and shrinkage

EternumPace>>>) i think have many physiological changes directly effected by the rhythms of nature acting in their bodies

Dorsal>>> yes, cass, but often HRT is started before any symptoms of note are evident.

Cassandra7777 my friend thought she had alzheimer's till she started taking estrogen

Velvt.)) i see, cass... so you think the inability to have children and the associated physical changes are impairments?

Velvt.)) oh, they have hormonal surges like women, eternum... but they are on more like a 47 day cycle for some reason than a 28 day cycle

Dorsal>>> I don't think HRT allows you to still have children, so it doesn't really treat that, yes?

EternumPace>>>) come to think of it, perhaps men have historically killed because they could not bleed it out, the lunacy or moon madness that is..

Velvt.)) 'associated physical changes'

Cassandra7777 I think the physical impairments can be severe in some women and cloud their thinking and cause them to lose their credibility

Velvt.)) <buries head>

Dorsal>>> well galdarn it, some physical changes might be impairments and some not, you'd have to say which changes.

Cassandra7777 as far as not having children, many women would consider that a blessing

Dorsal>>> galdarn?

Dorsal>>> gall darned?

--Redeemed-- Cassandra,,,,JESUS will help you through it all,,!!!

Dorsal>>> what the hell am I talking like that for?

Dorsal>>> howdy!

Dorsal>>> darn tootin'!

Cassandra7777 lol Dorsal>>>

Velvt.)) cass, you might want to do some research online about the effects of excess estrogen... PMS is one of them... and yet as soon as our levels start to drop, we are supposed to run and get them pumped up artificially

Cassandra7777 maybe velvt, but I'm trying not to rush the process

Velvt.)) gol'durn, dor

Cassandra7777 I like to think I'm cranky cuz I earne dit

Dorsal>>> gol'durn? hmmm

Cassandra7777 and earned it too

Velvt.)) just the opposite, cass, sounds like you are trying to avoid it

Cassandra7777 exactly

Velvt.)) i'd rather not be cranky, personally

Dorsal>>> They are getting more sane about the amounts of replacement.

Rosie1950 way late here-goodnight all- take care

Cassandra7777 being cranky is a lot more fun than being insipid

Velvt.)) night rosie

Cassandra7777 bye Rosie

Dorsal>>> still, hmm, if our average life span was only about 45 for most of our evolution, then it means that it is unlikely that physical changes after that age have been optimized at all by natural selection.

Velvt.)) lol cass... oh my... those aren't the only two available alternatives

EternumPace>>>) seems to me physiological phenomena have historically been dealt with first with stories, myth, art accompanied but never replaced by medicines

Rosie1950 night all-poofers

Dorsal>>> The argument is disturbingly compelling by Darwinians concerning age.

Velvt.)) dor, i read about an interesting thing regarding 'lifespans'

Cassandra7777 if you could halt aging, would you?

Dorsal>>> do tell, Velvt.))

Velvt.)) and no, i don't recall the details :(

Dorsal>>> you toy with my emotions, Velvt.))

Dorsal>>> I would if I could still die in a timely fashion, cass.

Cassandra7777 Hey OG, did you see the ring around the moon tonight?

Velvt.)) but there was some sort of research done that showed that the different in lifespans over the last howevermanyyears... from 45 - 75 basically, appear to be much more a function of decreased child mortality, not increased longevity

Velvt.)) difference

EternumPace>>>) so we were built by evolution to live to a ripe ol age?

Cassandra7777 I'm ripe enough

Velvt.)) i'm not ripe enough :)

Dorsal>>> k, yes, velvt, but that is mostly

Dorsal>>> hmmm

Dorsal>>> let's see,

Velvt.)) lol

EternumPace>>>) i only eat the apples on the ground

Dorsal>>> so, first, no one thinks the process of aging has changed over recent time (past 100 thousand years say),

Cassandra7777 taste my fruits before I sour dire worm of death

Velvt.)) you know me, dor, by now i think... i remember the summary and never the specifics... i really hate this development

EternumPace>>>) that was my shot at a zen tao kinda thing

Velvt.)) works for me, eternum :)

Dorsal>>> over past few hundred years or so, much of average age being less is due to infant mortality, but

Cassandra7777 confucious say sitting under apple tree can cause sudden headache

Velvt.)) that was newton's mother, but he didn't listen

Cassandra7777 : )

Dorsal>>> from age of mummies and dead guys in bogs, it seems that ancient folks rarely lived past 45 or so AND had high infant mortality, though the infant mortality is hard to know well (not many children in bogs), so

Cassandra7777 I'm making apple head dolls...wonder what visitors think of the little shrunken heads everywhere

Velvt.)) yes, dor, i think re: ancient peoples that may well be true... but life was just more dangerous then, too

EternumPace>>>) we, scientist or no, do not often enough consider that the universe knows how it all works

Dorsal>>> if you were in luxury/ruling class (small minority) of ancient culture, you might live past 60 for example. anyway, that is working theory based on present evidence as I understand it;

Dorsal>>> more dangerous and less sanitary.

Velvt.)) i mean, you get an infected spider bite, and you would die, pretty much, right?

Dorsal>>> bad water, etc, no knowledge of germs.

Dorsal>>> yes, Velvt.))

Cassandra7777 have a cs=die, have an leg wound=die

Cassandra7777 etc etc

Velvt.)) right... so it wasn't a function of the body's ability to live longer but of the circumstances they were living in, which is pretty much the point

Cassandra7777 small pox, tuberculosis

EternumPace>>>) isn't there a death gene , yet? some kindof of physiological egg timer?

Dorsal>>> The bottom line being, so few people statistically lived past 45-50, that there has never been any serious selection pressure on us past that age.

Velvt.)) but we don't know that there was any needed, either, dor

Dorsal>>> This is the "why" of why you run out of eggs then; no need for them if you are dead.

Velvt.)) not necessarily... those who can no longer produce children are able to give more to the tribe

Dorsal>>> No, none needed. NOW we need it and aging and menopause are the result of no selection needed throughout our evolution.

Velvt.)) they don't need to focus on their young, but they still contribute to society, even more perhaps

EternumPace>>>) so, what are you saying, Dorsal>>>, your not going to win any popularity contests with a slogan like "life ends at 50"

Dorsal>>> Onfortunately, evolution is slower than culture. we have antibiotics and such, but Darwin is unimpressed.

Cassandra7777 ::Suddenly panics because I'm running out of eggs::

Velvt.)) i don't think women need to keep producing babies until they die

Dorsal>>> velvt, that seems not to be a very strong selective force. Folks who wish it were have tested it,

Velvt.)) that wouldn't be good for a social animal, even

EternumPace>>>) what about social darwinism?

Dorsal>>> by comparing advantage to your genes surviving in the nurturing grandmother model versus let me procreate longer model.

Cassandra7777 why do I feel like I'm a cheerleader at a mensa meeting?

EternumPace>>>) this is, afterall, the menses menoan post caloric age, where men bleed like women and we stell the history of energy

Dorsal>>> It would be better for the woman (in terms again, as always, the survival of her genes) to have babies until she dies. At least this seems to be the consensus of evolutionary biologists.

Dorsal>>> There is a really good book on this for non-scientists.

EternumPace>>>) but Dorsal>>>, that might not be good for the baby

Myopic4141**) Hello everyone.

Velvt.)) dor, i don't see that at all... if the loss of only occsional estrus allows for human groups to bear a child a year, for instance, thus more than insuring a surplus for the explansion of the species, then there is no need for the experienced and more knowledgable to keep producing children, who take up time and effort

Cassandra7777 hello 4141

EternumPace>>>) what is estrus??

Cassandra7777 children use up resources as well

Dorsal>>> These ideas are explored, Velvt.)) There are ways of addressing the differing ideas.

Velvt.)) eternum, the way other mammals come into heat only when conditions are favorable, etc

Cassandra7777 ah well, guess I'll go to 40ish before I get lost again

Cassandra7777 have fun

EternumPace>>>) i thought estrus meant rhythmic heat

Velvt.)) yes dor, so i don't think the 'be a baby machine ' would be the only determining factor

Dorsal>>> etern, good for the baby isn't ultimately the concern of evolution, at least not any individual baby. Most animals have far more off spring than survive to adulthood. The issue is whether more children would survive under which condition.

EternumPace>>>) no. perhaps rhythmic heat is pre-estrus

Velvt.)) hi myo

EternumPace>>>) i see your point, Dorsal>>>

Velvt.)) i should shut up... i'm having more and more trouble making my fingers do what i want

Dorsal>>> also, there is the evidence that we didn't really live past 45, so nurturing grandmas, to the extent they are nice, are lovely epiphenomena exapted by culture.

Myopic4141**) An evolution dicatate is that species procreate at a rate to overcome envronmental conditions.

Dorsal>>> <VERY excited at using exaptation in a sentence!>

Velvt.)) dor *sigh*... we've been cultural since we became humans... it's part of our evolutionary circumstances

Velvt.)) i'm excited for you dor LOL

Dorsal>>> yes, we've been cultural, but if we didn't live past 45 until recently, our culture could not take advantage of grandmas till recently. so they would not play into the evolution, nor would their menopause.

EternumPace>>>) exapted is a great word

justin.bear hellos

Dorsal>>> exaptation is sort of a made up word by S. Gould to describe an attribute chosen by selection for one purpose and then taken and used later for another, if I recall correctly.

Velvt.)) the cultures could take advantage of an increasing ability of the body to live longer, gain more experience, etc etc etc... so survival, babies, evolution, etc isn't an argument in favor of dying at 45

Velvt.)) hi justin

Velvt.)) welcome to sex chat <in an odd way>

Myopic4141**) A second evolution dictate is that there be sufficient variation to overcome changes in the environment.

Dorsal>>> the argument for dying at 45 is the age of ancient dead people. the rest follows from that.

justin.bear eat yogurt from goats milk to live long

justin.bear thats what the people in the alps do

Dorsal>>> myopic, sort of.

justin.bear :O)

Myopic4141**) Not sort of.

Velvt.)) well, the afghani mtn people live into their hundreds on apricots and yogurt, i think

Dorsal>>> Evolution doesn't say a species has to have sufficient variation to overcome all changes in the environment, myopic.

Dorsal>>> That's all I meant by sort of.

Myopic4141**) without both, extinction will occur.

Velvt.)) hi alain

alain_delon2 hi v

Dorsal>>> but go ahead, I am interested. yes, extinction will occur. and things do go extinct.

justin.bear there is always that Einstein theory that time is increasing in speed every moment....perhaps age 45 in ancient times is simmilar to age 90 now

justin.bear but what do i know

Velvt.)) ohhhhhhhh... could be !

Dorsal>>> heheh justin yes, we have speeded up!

Dorsal>>> so age slower.

Myopic4141**) A change in environment that a species cannot adapt to will cause extinction.

Velvt.)) way cool, justing

Velvt.)) <g>

justin.bear :O)

Dorsal>>> course, that is only relative speed, so we would only age slower to someone else. alas.

Dorsal>>> Yes, myopic.

justin.bear not to someone else

justin.bear that theory is based on a universal...uh somethin

EternumPace>>>) Velvt.)) i wann stick this estrus definition a little more. is it possible the def has changed with time because anthropologically estrus is a rhythmic sex frenzy

justin.bear what is myopic?

Velvt.)) perhaps it's based on the expansion of the universe, or our physical location within space <as a planet> and so the duration has changed

Myopic4141**) 20/2400.

Myopic4141**) vision.

Velvt.)) i duuno, esternum... my brain is starting a shut down process right now... i go through this every day

Velvt.)) hi lancer

Dorsal>>> so, the slowing of time wrt special relativity is due to an increase in velocity with respect to something. A being on that something would see that our time slowed, we would not. well, we would see their time slow, but not ours.

Dorsal>>> um, is that clear?

justin.bear it could also be persepcion...look at 2 tv's playing the same thing...the bigger tv apears to be moving slower while the small one is hyperactive

EternumPace>>>) no doubt a female can now have more conscious control of when she is ready to mate. this fascinates me because I think it speaks to the heart of many disciplines

Velvt.)) it sounds interesting etern... the sort of thing i'm interested in anyway

justin.bear eternum that isnt evolution..that is feminism

Dorsal>>> heheh estrus

justin.bear :O)

EternumPace>>>) i think you nailed that Dorsal>>>

Myopic4141**) Dorsal>>>, I think you have part of that reversed.

Dorsal>>> I prefer what etern said, myo. . .

EternumPace>>>) exactly, justin, it speaks to both the high and the low, the animal and the gender

Dorsal>>> :) What do you think I reversed.

Dorsal>>> ?

justin.bear i wish i was high

justin.bear hehe

Dorsal>>> lol justing

Myopic4141**) A person on an increased velocity would see our time speed up and we would see thier time slow down.

Dorsal>>> so, where were you going with evolution, myo? any where in particular?

justin.bear its funny how a lot of people add a g to justin

Dorsal>>> No, myo. That is the whole point of the relativity part, I think.

justin.bear myo the other way around

justin.bear i think

Myopic4141**) Just stating the two primary dictums of evolution.

EternumPace>>>) is it that late, now myopic could be right two, its all relative i guess hehehe

Velvt.)) justin... it's an automatic typing problem... ING is so common in our language

justin.bear i just critiqued a kids paper on the possibility of time travel

Dorsal>>> If we are moving fast by something, we see their time slowed and they see ours slowed, otherwise we could do an experiment to see which of us was stationary (and them motion wouldn't be relative).

justin.bear after reading it i decided it is impossible to travel in the past

justin.bear but you can into the future

Myopic4141**) An individual traveling at or near the speed of light would have time slow, not speed up.

Dorsal>>> cool, justin. Many physicists agree with you. How did you come to that?

Velvt.)) what do you teach, justin?

justin.bear that is related to what Dorsal>>> just said

justin.bear hahaha i do not teach

justin.bear i am a 20 year old student in essay writing class

Dorsal>>> Yes, myo, as observed by someone else outside the moving system.

justin.bear we had to get a partner and exchange papers

justin.bear mine was on legalization of medicinal marijuana

justin.bear :O)

Velvt.)) cool

Velvt.)) sounds like a good class

justin.bear no

justin.bear well..only cuz the teacher is interesting

Myopic4141**) As a result, to an individual traveling at or near the speed of light, the outside world would appear in faster time.

justin.bear i hate free writting

Dorsal>>> Travel into the past, or more precisely, the ability to affect the past causes what physicists call a naked singularity. It is believed (hoped) that naked singularities are physically impossible.

Velvt.)) ahem... that is the point of a class, to be a venue for a teacher to impart knowledge

Dorsal>>> Affecting the future doesn't cause the same problem.

justin.bear you cannot go in the past to kill your mother

justin.bear because..

justin.bear you would have never been able to do it in the first place

justin.bear simple as that

Dorsal>>> No, myopic. The outside world would appear slower since the outside world appears to be moving close ot the speed of light if you pass it close to the speed of light.

justin.bear but going to the future is no problem

Dorsal>>> That is the point. You cannot tell which object is "really" moving.

Velvt.)) unless, of course, it just changes the course of SOME alternative timelines and not the one you were on

justin.bear besides having the human body getting ripped to shreds

Dorsal>>> Yes, justin, that is basic situation related to singularity.

Myopic4141**) To view past, one would have to travel faster than speed of light.

justin.bear velvt naw i think it still wont work

justin.bear time is just movement

justin.bear well...maybe it would work

justin.bear who knows

justin.bear maybe time is always changing cuz of a person that already invented a time machine

Dorsal>>> Killing your mom-to-be is pretty much guaranteed to affect your time line.

justin.bear isnt there one guy that made one and him and the machine disapeared?

justin.bear i remembe rthat fable

Velvt.)) not if you entered into a different timeline at that point dor, or if that act caused the new timeline but didn't affect the preexisting old one

EternumPace>>>) but what if there is multiple parallel dimensions, you could just fall into a dimensional saftey net and life a new time line

justin.bear traveling faster than the speed of light is really traveling into the futer

Velvt.)) that's what i meant by alternative timelines, eternum

justin.bear your time stays the same while others is slowed

Myopic4141**) No traveling into the past.

EternumPace>>>) i see that, vel. i wrote that before reading your post.

Velvt.)) ah, gmta

justin.bear velvt just say paradox

Dorsal>>> It is no longer clear who "you" is if your mom never gave birth to you. There is the usual "who killed your mom if you weren't born?" question which more or less captures accurately the paradoxa nd the mathematical singularity.

Myopic4141**) That in front would increase in time, that behind would decrease.

Velvt.)) no justin, i'm saying paradox need not be a controlling issue

Dorsal>>> crap, I'm getting annoying, aren't I? brb

justin.bear oh

justin.bear im getting anoyed

justin.bear but not by any of you

EternumPace>>>) Dorsal>>>, i am not convinced i couldn't kill my father. i was sortof hoping actually....

justin.bear by the topic itself

Velvt.)) i'm getting blond *shrug*

justin.bear im going to smoke a ciggaret

justin.bear brb

Velvt.)) give us a new one, justin... we're pretty open, i think

Myopic4141**) As one approaches an object before hand, the view is rapid transition to the now, not he future.

justin.bear ok...ill ponder

justin.bear while i smoke

justin.bear too bad it isnt buds

justin.bear then ide reeally have a good one

justin.bear brb

Velvt.)) k

EternumPace>>>) myopic, souns like you are talking about some kind of psychic even horizon

Myopic4141**) Think about it.

EternumPace>>>) event horizon

Myopic4141**) The light we see from Alpha Centari is the image from 4.5 years ago.

Dorsal>>> .

Myopic4141**) As we would approach Alpha Centari, the view would advance until the light emiting becomes as emitted.

Velvt.)) myo, just an aside... i got my driveway plowed today, now i just have to dig my car out

Myopic4141**) Good for you.

Dorsal>>> heheh I have memories of digging my car out of snow.

Dorsal>>> I thought I had been really smart putting the shovel in the trunk . . .

Velvt.)) LOL

Velvt.)) well, you need two, of course !

Dorsal>>> yeah, I know that now. Fine.

Dorsal>>> First big snow in Boston was good teacher.

Myopic4141**) Two feet of snow has fallen on Snoqualmie Pass.

Velvt.)) i forgot to get my big shovel out of the shed before it snowed

Myopic4141**) Since this morning.

Dorsal>>> I was a cracker from Georgia. I thought I had it covered.

Velvt.)) experience is a good thing :)

ramsesthedammed since someone is on the topic of science, is anyone following the breakthroughs is vibro-physics?

Myopic4141**) 1998, 94 feet of snow on Mt. Baker.

Velvt.)) it's part of what i like about aging, even though cass evidently doesn't appreciate any benefits yet

Dorsal>>> The trunk shovel was excellent for the small to medium snows. <looking around for support>

Velvt.)) and for when you got stuck, dor

Dorsal>>> What is vibro-physics?

Velvt.)) i'll brb now

Myopic4141**) Vibration physics?

ramsesthedammed its the study of the building blocks that provide consisency for sub atomic particles

Dorsal>>> like quarks? gluons? like that?

ramsesthedammed quasi-matter/quasi-energy

EternumPace>>>) plasma?

ramsesthedammed quarks and sub-quarks ie plasma strands

ramsesthedammed yeah

Dorsal>>> k

Dorsal>>> so, know, I don't know much about it. What have you read?

Dorsal>>> so, no

EternumPace>>>) did you ask if we were up on current events re: vibro-physics. cause i missed the last symposium, i had to watch Friends

Myopic4141**) I heard that they are looking at nano devices for cpu's.

Dorsal>>> lol etern

ramsesthedammed I have been focusing on the application, in the areas of guided chromosome engineering, there are a few boards online that discuss it.

EternumPace>>>) sounds interesting, ramses. interesting tag btw

justin.bear what did i miss?

Myopic4141**) There is also some sites on nano technology.

Myopic4141**) *are

Velvt.)) nsvl

Velvt.)) which means back in velvt speak

Dorsal>>> How would one use sub-atomic particles to engineer chromosomes?

EternumPace>>>) welcome back, Velvt.))

Dorsal>>> crap. brb

Velvt.)) <checking finger placement> ty, etern

Myopic4141**) velvt, you need to send me a handy dandy decoder ring for velvt speak.

EternumPace>>>) there is a man of few words.

justin.bear theres a problem...i am Taoist so when i went outside to smoke my cigg, I looked at a birch tree and my thoughts emptied...sorry i have nothing new to ponder

justin.bear :O)

Velvt.)) myo, just move all fingers one key to the right

Myopic4141**) Please switch back to left.

Velvt.)) that's fine by mee, justin... or me

justin.bear mee too

Velvt.)) dang, this could get embarassing soon

justin.bear ?

justin.bear nano...isnt that ....what is that?

Velvt.)) nt ty.....AARRGGHHHH... MY TYPING !

Myopic4141**) The other night, someone with long nails kept interjecting charaters from the upper keys.

justin.bear a nano second

justin.bear ive heard that

EternumPace>>>) isn't "nano" how peole from Ork say hello?

Myopic4141**) nano is short for nanomaeter.

Velvt.)) nanoo

ramsesthedammed its complex, I can try to outline it, but it requires that a few other theories be understood first.

Myopic4141**) nanometer*

justin.bear try me

Myopic4141**) 1 billionth of a meter.

EternumPace>>>) go ahead, ramsesthedamm

justin.bear i might know those other theories

ramsesthedammed has any one read Drexler?

Velvt.)) i thought nano was just the decimal designation, not the measuring standard

justin.bear nope

Myopic4141**) That in nano nano

justin.bear what does he say?

EternumPace>>>) wasn't Drexler the arch fiedn on the A-team?

Myopic4141**) Or 77 in Japanese.

justin.bear haha..this chinese kid was teaching me chinese last night

ramsesthedammed LOL something like that,

Velvt.)) etern, want to go watch TV with me? i missed the same symposium, clearly

Myopic4141**) I was using it to describe a technology being developed.

ramsesthedammed he pioneered the workable side of nanothechnology

EternumPace>>>) i would actually like to hear about this nano technology but that its late and I have tv on the brain obviously

Myopic4141**) nanometer size mechanical devices.

justin.bear im watching cartoon network

Velvt.)) ok, got it, myo, thank you for clarifying that

Myopic4141**) http://www.research.ibm.com/nanoscience/index1.html

Velvt.)) i almost thought i was going to be able to watch TV soon, but i think it's falling through

Velvt.)) so you guys are stuck with me

ramsesthedammed either way. quarks vibrate, in theory if you change the frequency, according to Drexler, they become non-matter or dissapear.

justin.bear well...im going to go mosey around other rooms

Velvt.)) tc justin

justin.bear peace

Myopic4141**) That any help etern?

Velvt.)) if you change it in a particular way, i assume, not just change it any old way

Velvt.)) or is a quark difference by default nonmatter?

Velvt.)) ok, i'll shut up

ramsesthedammed which well its not really matter nor energy its both

Myopic4141**) Always in transition form?

Velvt.)) i was going there next but decided not to... i'd never sustain the edge

ramsesthedammed yes

Velvt.)) .

Myopic4141**) I read about that someplace; but, cannot think of where.

ramsesthedammed so how does this relate to chromosome alteration and enhancement?

Myopic4141**) I think something by Stephen Hawkins.

EternumPace>>>) evolution is poetic if nothing else. a quarter of a million years ago 5 men and a lady had all they needed in their universe by lining up to preggers a female then going off to shoot the breeze.

ramsesthedammed lol, He is involved at many points

Velvt.)) i'm back still... stuck on specific or general change of frequency

Velvt.)) eternum, don't you have it backwards?

Myopic4141**) Actually, according to animal husbandtry studies, viability occurs only with herds greater than 400.

Velvt.)) oh

Velvt.)) so 1 woman and 400 guys? i'll volunteer

ramsesthedammed that part is not yet workable, many scientists are up in arms about that idea, it goes against many accepted facts in physics

Myopic4141**) 399 women and 1 guy.

Velvt.)) well, that would be the end of THAT species, myo :)

Myopic4141**) Got this 9 month latency problem.

Velvt.)) yeah, but a guy would cave just under the thought of 399 women

Myopic4141**) Not me.

Velvt.)) hi bob

bob1741 hi Velvt.))

bob1741 hi myopic

Myopic4141**) Hello bob.

Myopic4141**) got filters to spare today?

EternumPace>>>) myopic, you might me the entrepreneur who invented the rapid sperm dilevery system, perhaps the the first undergound economy

bob1741 hi eter and ramses and signing

EternumPace>>>) maybe thats how forward thinking cavemen gots to be chief

Velvt.)) i need to get going... see if i can fall asleep so i can wake up early tomorrow. i'm supposed to go to a board of directors' meeting and have to do the car digging thing first

ramsesthedammed it wont be the first time the science book thumpers have eaten crow, in 1918, the idea of splitting an atom was thought as totally absurb by the 'ahem'..."most educated"

Myopic4141**) G'nite Velvt.))

EternumPace>>>) goodnight, Velvt

bob1741 goodnight Velvt.))

ramsesthedammed later all

Velvt.)) ty all... have a good one

Velvt.)) if i can't sleep, i'll be back, of course

bob1741 lol

Myopic4141**) How about much of the false theories of evolutionary development.

Myopic4141**) all/much

EternumPace>>>) theories are by definition, capable of being disproven always

EternumPace>>>) even laws are mutable at times

Myopic4141**) Everything evolves. Is that not great!

EternumPace>>>) personally, i am starting to believe it credible that alien race or races helped us evolve down to the genetic level

Myopic4141**) I believe there is intelligent life out there; but, such never visited here.

EternumPace>>>) someone told me that we have a genetic cocktail of several alien races as our founding blueprint

Myopic4141**) Would violate the intelligence part.

EternumPace>>>) how so, myopic?

Myopic4141**) If you were intelligent, would you visit here?

EternumPace>>>) i don't rightly know one way or the other. are you being cynical or rational?

Myopic4141**) Once put forth the theory that this planet is the Botany Bay of the civilized universe.

EternumPace>>>) that sounds interesting

EternumPace>>>) like a sperm bank or a sperm zoo or both i guess

Myopic4141**) Botany Bay was a penal colony in Austrailia.

EternumPace>>>) in a way, we make computers to learn about ourselves. (why we are here in VP) it is reasonable or imaginable that another species made us to learn about itself

EternumPace>>>) oh. a penal colony. that is another option.

Myopic4141**) Took a while; but, you finally caught on.

EternumPace>>>) myopic have you ever seen the movie, BladeRunner?

Myopic4141**) Yes.

EternumPace>>>) so the android, or created human identifies with its maker.

EternumPace>>>) or "replicant"

EternumPace>>>) so in a way, we are learning just as much about the aliens as they of us

seeker1844 What's the topic of choice?

EternumPace>>>) in BladeRunner, the climax indicates that the replicant may even be more evolved than the human , the Bladerunner played by Harrison Ford

Myopic4141**) You assume that aliens put us here for study. Judging from our charater traits as a species, I would

Myopic4141**) guess that we are to be avoided at all possible costs.

EternumPace>>>) are you sure you aren't being cynical?

Myopic4141**) We are the most violent species on this planet.

Myopic4141**) We not only destroy that around us; but, each other as well.

EternumPace>>>) we are the most volatile in many ways. just look many there are of us. its a wonder we don't kill each other more

EternumPace>>>) <thats the eternal optimist speaking>

Myopic4141**) It is not from lack of trying.

Myopic4141**) I am a cynical optimist.

EternumPace>>>) now that you mention, though, we are rather barbaric

EternumPace>>>) it would be an interesting experiment to place some humans on a planet with no violence, kindof like Lord of the Flies

Myopic4141**) I would love to continue this; but, my nighttime chores are calling.

EternumPace>>>) ok. goodnight, myopic. nice chatting with you.

Myopic4141**) Better make it 399 females and one male.

EternumPace>>>) lol. ok, myopic.

EternumPace>>>) is anyone else still awake?

EternumPace>>>) goodnight all

EternumPace>>>) HNIWSH OMEGA

bob1741 goodnight eter