Enlightenment and Direct Experience
Enlightenment and Direct Experience *
About Enlightenment *
About Direct Experience *
<<From Me>> #2648-2650 (club: the Universe of Zen)
* Hmm, unusually quiet..according to the stats. I just wonder some goading is in progress unless regulars are bored, tired, or taking a break. Anyway, to fill up the void, here is another stone into the pond - from a clown of UOZ on the subject - raison' d'e'tre of Zen, the enlightenment:
Actually, it may not be a good idea to use the word like "enlightenment". It sounds heavy, and as soon as such word is spoken, many of us may think of something very special or foreign and start to have a distance. For example, the word may remind us the image of Zen masters who went through thousands of Koan training and many thousands of hours of Zazen and such things. There is even a saying like, "If you want to do Zen, you must be prepared to do Harakiri." Then, with such a mental distance created, the whole idea may not be communicated or even evaporated before we know it. Actually, that is the reason why in Zen temples, it is customary not to mention the word, "satori" or enlightenment. But in order to gain some insight about it and bring it into our life, let me try to sort things out. One thing that I need to point out however is that I am ignorant enough to talk such thing without any qualification. So, a caution is in order that this is just my personal view. Nothing more; nothing less. Just an embarrassing piece of work for a public ridicule except that I want to learn by getting some insight as feedback. With that, let me begin….
One notion I believe we should have is that "we all have a switch to turn enlightenment process going!" Subtle, but it is there. In the hearing of the sound of fly, in cleaning up the room, in birds, wind, and one's greeting, or in silence, it is right there. In other words, in everything, anywhere, anytime. By training, or un-trainings as some may say, I think this switch starts to work well. In fact, we have had it on until we ate the apple. But now, it is like when you want to turn on (the switch), you need to turn off (to think about it). If you chase it, it runs away. Also, if you think you got it, already, it is not there. Guaranteed. Very elusive, yet alive, indescribable, unknown, and nobody can say what it is but just "what it is" - like a "direct experience".
It is subjective and each one needs to find it by being in the state of what is. Therefore, you may not be able to tell if I have it or not, and vice versa. (Only exception may be, if that is the absolute state we are talking about, the enlightened one should be able to tell if the other one is enlightened if they are around with each other for some time.) For the same reason, the following is just my expression on the subject at this moment. It could well be written quite differently tomorrow as I and the state I am in changes constantly. Anyway, as I see it, there may be an indication of what enlightenment is or may be like. But I am not you, so I cannot see how you take it. Unfortunately, that is what it is.
Enlightenment is a continuous process that is apparent in nature, which basically means everywhere. However, we cannot see or relate to it unless we are enlightened. One way to find it is as follows. For us to conduct our life, we have mission, call it H-max. or maximizing or attaining the happiness. Then, there are "what should be" and "what is". This typically creates the need(s) and energy to address the need(s). Such need is however to be proven by the process of self-clarification, i.e., being presential and X, or quiet center, to see if the process is in line with the nature's way. In other words, the needs or energy to address the need has to be natural. This proof is to be gained by monitoring responses in mind-heart-body system. This is basically the same as finding us off balance while riding a bicycle. It is intuitively obvious and we have the innate ability to detect such off the balance situation since we are a part of nature.
(This is the point of un-training for us to be able to do this well.)
Then, this checking and realization process is done by X, again a natural process, or we can say that that is an autonomous process. Thus, it is not a logical process or describable one because if that is the case, it is like the painting of cake that we cannot eat. There is infinite distance between logic and truth. In other words, once described, it is not there anymore. So, that makes this writing job very interesting. Also, for this reason, we cannot seek for it because seeking, in this case, is an act driven by concepts as our intellect is used there to describe things. So, it is not that, or even "what is" as soon as we describe it or even think about it. Reality is there and therefore, chasing it already misses the mark. So, one needs to directly experience this to know "what is". To say this differently, we realize it when we come out of illusion. Truth can be found by eradicating the errors. Then, we need to develop a sense of figuring out if we are in such an unbalanced state or not. This leads to the notion of Buddha's middle way.
When this is clear, and when one's awareness is astute, that is when one reaches to a sense of H(individual)=H(universe), or one's mission is identified with the nature's way. So, there is a sense of conviction and clarification in Mind-Heart-Body System. We may be able to say in such a process terms that, this is when total main-heart-body system is aligned with the nature's way. Some call such a state or experience as fallen off the body and mind. It indicate that nothing is supporting but left totally open without any intrusion of mind that just like sky is totally vast, there is nothing left but just be. This may be seen as insight, or process/movement/state one senses he is in. Such moment may be called as the moment of enlightenment. When I write like this, it sounds supernatural, but it is nothing but a natural state.
However, ultimately, the enlightenment is a process, not only a moment of feeling elevated or anything like that in a short term if there is such a sense. There are people who got elevated feeling and thought that they found some profound experience but after a while went back to the previous self without knowing why - only seeking to repeat that experience again. Obviously, that is a case of being caught in delusion. Instead, technically speaking, if one is enlightened, his whole Mind-Heart-Body system and his action should be proven according to the laws of nature. Or may we say that if one is truly enlightened, he does not know that he is enlightened because it cannot be important any more.
This is the same as, for example, if we think being natural is important, and if we need to keep talking, thinking, and acting about it to realize the state, we are not natural at all. It is like that. So, when I am typing this about enlightenment right now, I may not be enlightened. This may sound theoretical, but let me quote one of Myoko-nin's saying here, "Thank you for not eradicating my delusion. Otherwise, I cannot appreciate this." While he is not from the Zen background, his whole behavior shows the understanding of the message - and if I may, it points out the process orientation that he realized.
So, in pragmatic terms, the process is tied to living by eradicating errors as one moves ahead in his life step at a time. Here, errors mean not following the law of nature, and as detected by our natural senses. Then, we can address it following the process mentioned above if we are astute to realize our errors. (Let's make sure one more time that if we try to eradicate, we cannot.) Another way to characterize the process may be "hypothesis and proof" type of continuous process. It is a trial and correction of moving on our life's passage - while aiming to accomplish our mission which then should correspond to the mission of the universe, or H(individual)=H(universe) again.
Again, it is a process and such process needs to be proven by or in line with the nature's law - like listening to the voice from the heart. This means that he realizes when he goes into the state of error or inattention, and be able to get back to the way by being present while providing insight as we find in the process of creation in nature. It is a direct experience when "what is" and "what should be" is one. Certainly, one lives like this way is following the law of nature and he cannot be any happier than that. This is why when one is enlightened, everything else is enlightened - to find that everything is following such principle. So, the process of being one with nature itself is enlightenment itself.
When Dogen went to China, he had a question, "If we are born with Buddha nature, why then we need training?" When he was enlightened, I am sure this question was resolved as much as everything else related to Buddha's way. I do not know the specific story but if I may imagine, the above point was the point he realized. That is: when he got enlightened, he found that everything has Buddha nature, i.e.,, enlightened. But, if we are not, we do not understand that message and lost in delusion, therefore, we need to train ourselves. Or, un-train ourselves to eradicate the error that comes from not getting the point mentioned above.
Having said that, please again understand that I am not enlightened at all when I say so. I did not go through any training in any way for any length of time. Nobody has given any approval of being enlightened. In fact, I do not know how anyone can approve, either. Instead, I am ignorant enough to expose my delusion like this so that I can get the teaching from anyone to clear up my delusion. After all, I cannot prove to myself or any person around me anything. My eleven-year-old son talks to me straight into my eyes at the lunch table the other day that I am a "sad" case and am "demented." In fact, if enlightenment is the state of being natural, what can be done to prove that I am in the state of being natural? By pointing delusion from what I just described? I am confident that all I wrote here is nothing significant or profound. I am just a clown and embarrassment. So, please provide me with comments for my learning. By the way, if I feel like a clown and am embarrassed in a natural way, well, maybe it is a very comfortable state to be in.
* Have a good day, one step at a time!
<<From Buzzcook>> #2653
That state of nature thing is a little troubling to me, if by that we include the mind body interface. Given what we know and suppose about genetics, a state of nature would be the last thing we would wish on some of our fellow men. I suppose we can side step this issue by making a distinction between the temporal state and the idealized "presential" state. We could also practice exclusionary rhetoric, but if the thing we have found is the "thing" it should be achievable by anyone not brain dead, or should it?
I anticipate that I’m creating a false distinction. But so what?
Reading back it seems that there is a consensus about what I have decided to call the "thing" for now. We seem to agree that it is purely experiential in nature and as such cannot be directly described. Yet we seem to want to devote our time to describing the thing or at least the conditions that surround it. It is as if by framing the perfect metaphor or simile we will have achieved something.
If the thing is there, then it is there. If we push a blind man into the thing he will stub his toe and quite properly curse us. If we lead a blind man to the thing he won’t sub his toe but stubbing ones toe is part of the thing and once again the blind man will quite properly curse us. If we tell a blind man where to find the thing, well the thing ain’t a place and we are cursed again.
So we are left with a thing like nose hair, useful to us but not something anyone else wants.
I suppose what I want to say is that there’s a thing and people should wear sandals
<<From Dragon>>2654
Cooky
From the summit of the mountain a man called to his friend (who was scrambling in the foothills)
"Hey! Look at the view!"
The friend looked in the direction indicated but all he could see were trees and distant mountaintops. From the summit, the climber started to describe the scene he saw; the patterns of the fields, sunlight sparkling on a distant river. The friend looked again and saw only trees and distant mountaintops. He tried hard to see through the trees, strained to see patterns and after many hours of straining eventually felt he had succeeded in seeing patterns in the treetrunks. Sunlight streamed through the leaf canopy in places and although beautiful, it didn't seem to have the quality of 'sparkle' that the climber described. He was intrigued by this quality of 'sparkle' which he didn't seem to be able to see and it occurred to him that there was something that could be seen from higher up the mountain that could not be seen from the foothills. Determined to see this thing for himself he began to climb the mountain.
Dragon
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Suzaki san 2655
I too am concerned about all this "law of nature" stuff. What do you mean by "nature" and "natural" and how do they have "laws"?
Dragon
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<<Yanavira>> 2657
Hi Suzaki San,
If I may give my comment, instead of eradicating error, I used to eradicate old conditioning. Perhaps people have ever heard about this before.
And if I may give my comment about enlightenment... it is what you experience within yourself here and now. In fact, it is also meaningless to try to describe what is enlightenment, they will only be confusing since that it is more important to experience it directly, only then enlightenment is real for you, then all arguments about it is irrelevant. We can not determine when we shall experience it, but we can ensure that we keep progressing toward it. We can control the present state of mind, by maintaining equanimity no matter what occurs outside and inside us, we achieve liberation in this moment. I can ensure you that every moment you do Vipassana properly, you may experience enlightenment. Although we can not strive to develop enlightenment, since enlightenment does not develop, it is simply is. But we can strive to develop the quality that will lead us to enlightenment, the quality of equanimity. Every moment. The highest quality of the mind is equanimity based on full awareness of reality*. How do you see the truth? ((*As much as we can live but now, this is the case.))
Nyanavira.
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<<From Me>>
Enlightenment and Meditation
Thank you all for the comments. I appreciate them very much as check and balance is a good way to deepen the understanding and to keep walking on our life's passage. Whether good or not, it appears to me that more we struggle to go one step forward, we develop better understanding - even if there are mistakes made along the way. So, it is a never-ending process. (This game may be played until the end of the world as a tree, or any species may to grow and to evolve further and further. That, to me, is the way "laws" of nature, or X, is exhibiting itself - as it is the case we find in everything and everywhere.)
If enlightenment is ultimately a process and to be proven somehow, the process I went through to come up with the note I posted here on enlightenment might also be tested. So, if you do not mind, I would like to ask you to visit my home page where such process is recorded in a form of my personal dialogue as a part of the link under the title, "Meditation - Doing My Way." If you read "The Second Day" part of meditation where the specific record of the process I went through is captured, hopefully, you find how the note I posted was developed. Then, perhaps, I may receive more specific comments related to that process as well. As you see, this is my personal passage. While each one's passage may differ, I again appreciate this opportunity to be able to share ideas/experiences. Thank you.
Meditation - Doing My Way.
At my home page, http://www.oocities.org/suzakico/index.html, with the same title, I posted there a complete description of my meditation process that took four days last week. It captures the meditation process I came up with and went through. It also describes the process and contents as well as lessons learned. There is a summary note on enlightenment that came out of this process, which I posted here on 7/17/00 as #2648-2650. I found a great value in this process so that I am starting to practice, and continuously starting to practice the learning as my life's principle process.
While I spent about 20 hours in those four days in a 'focused' manner and summarized the process, the process can be further internalized with continuous polishing up job. (Or, who knows it may require major revamp.) Also, the summary is like a shell left behind the act. So, especially on the subject like this, it is recommended to read the specific record of the process to get the story in a most direct way. At what level the record may communicate my experience to the reader, I cannot predict. In any case, this record should illustrate my experience for anyone's scrutiny and I am happy to be able to provide such an occasion. Still, for those who are interested, I hope they will capture the essence of this exercise, and be able to apply it, or modify it to suit them. If you try this out or have any insight on this, I am very curious to hear the comments. So, please inform me as I think this may offer a great value - a great value of no value that is.
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<<equa libre>>2662
Thank you for sharing your thoughts dearest one Kiyoshi, and love to you!
(This site may be of interest):
http://www.wideopenwin.com/BACK2.html
Your abundant philosophies has somewhat of a knock-on effect, and I find myself also questioning, and asking: What IS enlightenment? How will I know when it happens? Or, am I already enlightened but it just hasn’t dawned on me yet? And, when I am enlightened will I be able to express it? And so on, so forth… I can’t be sure if this will help in any way, but I’d just like to share some ramblings of my own…
Yes, I do believe it is a process of being, of totality with nature, without the need for labels or expressions. But as I speak, I invariably launch myself through the dominoe effect (to which I surrender). And as usual, as theories go, one must give examples…
My closest experience of mini-dawnings (and I don’t wish to linger on the so called ‘illusion’ for too long – less I vanish into thin air myself LOL), happened along over a period of meditation and isolation, whereby a ‘natural’ state was encountered. I was shouting, almost screaming. My whole body, mind, spirit (yes that thing) resonated in unison, vibrating MEGA soundwaves! But no sound came. No one to talk to, nothing to reflect back, only an energy release - a silent explosion. Something like ...
... like an interlocking of metaphoric pieces of a 3-dimensional jigsaw puzzle, this puzzle consisted of the universe, a universe created in my mind. The earth as I knew it, the memories, the past and all its manifestations locking into place. All becoming ONE entity. My feeling was that of ‘mother earth’, the trees felt alive and verdant, the sky and ground felt all around, neither was up nor down, just around. All that was, my emotions, my thoughts, my presence, merged into one gi-normous bundle. I felt eternity, time did not exist during that moment. I felt that I was the tree, that I was Earth, I felt that I WAS the universe. Each particle, each element, each that was all. Together, amalgamated into oneness. I, the universe. Except its wasn’t me, the ego I. It was the IS, like the universe IS, like being IS, like the NOW just IS. I found myself gasping then, and pleading "If THIS is enlightenment…?" at which point I ‘awoke’, I could not place it, I could not finish my sentence…
After much deliberation, I did not place this particular event to anything more than an experience, as I do in everyday existence. Such as being in love, eating sweet cherries, or feeling pain in my abdomen. And, has this (if at all) helped in my understanding of Satori? *laughs* Perhaps. Perhaps what I experienced can serve as an ‘example’ of HOW it is. But the more I think about it, as I attempt to express my reality, the more I find myself entangled in a circle of yin-yang cabling, going through loops, and reverting back again avoiding as much dukkha as possible.
Perhaps my journey will be answered once I stop the quest? This is also debatable as I am in continual growth. I sometimes think (and this can be dangerous! LOL), life’s process is like a chess game. Each piece representing daily issues, a game initiated each waking morning. A very complex game, which apparently hasn’t yet been mated. Sometimes checked, mostly stale, but before I get the chance to finish, night befalls and I fall asleep once more. Only to wake the next day, expecting to continue, but the chessboard and pieces are back to its original position, poised to start again…
On this note, and until tomorrow, I am, whatever the defined ‘state’. For me, enlightenment or otherwise, I am striving for awareness and equanimity wherever that may lead…
*smiles* and as always, like you, we ARE…
Thank you for this space to for me to fill,
in love and tranquillity
~may~
PS the joker in a hand jests with none I love clowns, rhymes with
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<<buzzcook>>
Kio:
I visited your site last night and looked at the process you describe, with a different set of eyes than before.
There is quite a bit of what you say that strikes chords in my memory of similar experiences that I have had.
Removing the "I" was a trick I learned through self-reflection as well. It is something like a self-created schizophrenia; at least that is my metaphor for it.
I agree that revelation is mundane, or rather ordinary. That is why that old juice commercial is so apt.
Your definition of nature and natural is fine. Other people use term in a way that that is less than pleasant so it tends to set of alarm bells for me.
I am happy that you have had success with your method
Buzzcook
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<<Yanavira >>2686 (on different post but related to enlightenment)
My experience is simply by keeping awareness and equanimity. My experience is simply by observing sensations with detachment. When I do my experience, they are in fact I do taste, look, touch, smell, talk, and think. With detachment, I observe its sensations arise and pass away. Thus, no sankhara and no kalapas are created, what should suffering exist? (* live as if someone else's life, live from X)
Although in practically, they may not as smooth as expected, still you must learn how to swim. Still you musn't refuse to enter the water yourself.
Our own bodies bear witness to the truth. When you discover the truth within, it becomes real for you and you live according to it. That is what happen to me. We can each realize the truth by learning to observe the sensations within ourselves.
Eyes and form, ears and sound, nose and smell, tongue and taste, body and touch, intellect and Dhamma are impermanent.
<<From Me>> #2800-2807
About Direct Experience
From my viewpoint, there were key areas touched on in the last few weeks, namely compassion, goad, tears, enlightenment, and meditation. Along the way, I thank you all for letting me to share my humble views and questions in this club. Also, I would like to thank for comments especially by equa_libre, Sue, Buzzcook, Yanavira, Wilbro, Bush, and others, including tsao tsung on 'tears' at Searchingfortheox club. My journey is certainly enriched, encouraged and checked and balanced better because of that.
While I sense certain level of clarity, there are somewhat convoluted areas in me. This is especially so when certain word starts to walk by itself to create unnecessary disturbance as opposed to letting the truth tell the story and just let it be. I sense it is the play of intellect stirring up the water, and thus need more "meditation" to sort things up so that the unnecessary luggage of knowledge is thrown away or reorganized to clean up my mind-heart-body system. This should be a continuous process of 'realignment' or 'clean up' as we are to contribute our full potential to live the best just like exercising our body for health.
A part of this process is almost like going back to the younger days when we started to get interested in playing with words as tools and while playing, lost the "reasons" and thus caught up in the play, which 'I' am trying to redo or streamline. It is to be able to use the words but not to be used by them - an issue of freedom, and knowing how to use words wisely for the purpose that ultimately suit H-max, i.e., living fully. Along with words and images, all past conditioning need to be checked and balanced, and related nerve/neuron system rewired in this Mind-Heart-Body system to perform its full potential. For my own clarification purpose, I selected the topic of "direct experience." I tried to capture my thoughts on this topic as shown below, hoping to get comments and feedback from the readers here for my learning and perhaps mutual understanding:
(Warning: As mentioned before, I do not feel qualified to discuss any of these subjects. The purpose is mainly for my own clarification. So, please read with critical eyes and use proper 'judgment.'):
* What is "Direct Experience"
It is the state of experience experiencing itself. It is absolute experience, pure experience. It is being at the present state when the observer and observed is one. It is when Zen jumps around. It is the free being state not from anything but what is. It is the state where there is no division of internal or external. Even though life maintaining and enhancing function may be engaged for that purpose, all memories and all software programs in our brain are being released from attachment or conditioning. As it is a non-ego state, we may feel very vulnerable and fully goaded before the switch-over takes place. Perhaps because of the sense which says there is nothing left to be lost, it may be called the state of 'equanimity.' (the first time I typed this word…).
There is sincerity, truthfulness, faith, freedom, and as-it-isness. Then, whatever we have at the state is to be self-organized for creation, or to bring insight. I see there is a movement. (I sense that there is that energy flowing, following certain principle of the universe - to achieve H-max., aligned to create our life for whatever the direction - maximizing the Happiness value of the universe.) There is no speck of constrained thoughts, self, nor I, but the innocence of a child jumping around. It is bright as the sun in the blue sky - with no clouds. When we have it, we have it now, here. It is a dynamic state. It is when the Buddha nature is apparent. Then, we are one with the nature expressing itself. We are the nature.
Perhaps, we can call it a meditative state as well. But it does not have to be Shikan Taza (just sit) as Dogen explained. It is found in sitting, walking, living, and sleeping - anywhere and anytime. When we walk in forest, our body changes its color to green. When we see the sun setting, the sun rays penetrate through us. When we hear the birds in trees, we hear God singing. When we are touched by reading the book of human's life, we have tears appearing in our eyes. When we hear wind up in the chimney, we know that it is expressing itself but we cannot touch or feel it. Yet we know it as wind makes the sound to make us aware of its existence. There are forms, expressions, insights or inspiring moments. Yet, behind these is the substance - indescribable One, called Buddha nature, X, or the laws of nature. It is abundantly clear without efforts, when we unbind ourselves from delusion.
That is direct experience. It is the state that is described in that short Hannya (prajna) paramita sutra - the heart sutra. While it may appear as a hypnotized state from the viewpoint of this dualistic world, the direct experience is the experience that cut through this to realize the absolute in the dualistic world.
* Direct Experience and "Dog"
All animals - if not everything - have direct experience, are enlightened, and have Buddha nature. I think this is basically the definition of these terms - except that we need to 'know' what direct experience, enlightenment, and Buddha nature are to be able to say that. In animals, their senses are focused on here and now. Their whole behavior is driven by X, the laws of nature. But they do not have much of brain software as we do for the quiet center to play any role, except that they represent the quiet center themselves. (Observer and observed are one.) I feel some people may try to get to the state of dog by meditation. If so, it is to get back to the state of innocent child as mentioned above such that the whole mind-heart-body system can be rewired to streamline to express the life energy fully in conducting our life so to speak.
Related to this is Joshu's dog's Mu koan* (*A monk asked, "Is there Buddha nature in dog?" Joshu said, "Mu (nothing).") seems to indicate either: 1) the absolute nothingness/affirmation state of dog which equates to Buddha nature, or 2) for the monk who asked that question being 'goaded' to go beyond existence and non-existence as he does not seem to have the idea of what the Buddha nature is in him to ask that question.
<<Yanavira>>From: #1401 UOZ
There was an eldery monk who was drying vegetables under the hot sun.
One asked him, "how old are you?"
He said, "Sixty-eight."
"Why must you work so hard here?"
"Because I am here."
"But you do not have to work under the hot sun..."
"Because the sun is there."
"!!!"
Nature nourishes all things, neglects none, and does not claim credit when successful. A man who works hard without complaints is at one with Nature's way.
* Direct Experience and "Enlightenment"
Just like the word 'enlightenment,' when we try to talk about 'direct experience,' it seems to slip away. This is because there is no "I" to experience it or have reference to relate to. Nobody owns it, and it is difficult if not impossible to describe what is. It is when experience is experiencing itself - always new in each instance. Then, in such experience in itself, there is no good or bad. There is no room for human judgment. It is the "absolute" state with no dualistic notion, nothingness as it is - yet there is full potential and movement within. Just as describing it is difficult, if we seek for it, it goes away. So, just let it be, let it experience, and let it evolve. It appears however that we have a faculty to sense this otherwise we cannot have such word, or experience to reflect on. So, we may thank for having delusion in us to realize this point.
Direct experience seems to equate to setting a condition for our life energy to figure out its course without artificial intervention from human consciousness. The course is a nature's course. Enlightenment is awakening coming out of direct experience. It indicates the process to come out of delusion, and have a process aligned to expression of full potential (H-max. universe) as a continuous process as mentioned before.
* Direct Experience and "Goad"
Direct experience is gained when the "Goading" passes through without having any resistance from our self. It is a no-self, natural state. This happens when we let go of everything. It may be equivalent of Harakiri when self breaks up as there is no where to go but break up, and nothing left but to be in that state. Then, the state of nature reveals itself, as it is. So, it may be called the most comfortable state. Nirvana? I do not know. And who knows anyway if there is no "I" but the experience experiencing itself. So, let it be.
* Direct Experience and "Samadhi"
What about samadhi? If I understand samadhi as the state of oneness, it seems identical to direct experience. I may experience it when I listen to birds, watch clouds in the sky, sun setting in the horizon, or when I am fully involved in writing, fishing, or meditating, thus forgetting self and realize me being one with the task. Or, may I say it is found whenever I am in the condition to experience this? But again, one may say that it is my own self-hypnotizing nature. (I wonder how the notion of 'subjectivity is truth' may relate to such experience, here.) Has anyone seen any dog in samadhi? A bird? If we call their natural state or the state of direct experience as samadhi, I think we can say that.
* Direct Experience and "Deep Samadhi"
Then, here is another question. If there is such a thing as 'deep samadhi' state that comes after years of meditation training, and if it is related to the experience of ecstasy or trance, it may relate to hormone release in the brain almost like taking a drug. Some sutras indicate that there are different depths of samadhi. A concern here is that of a self-hypnotized state, thus losing the link to Mahayana, never mind the link to the human society. If this happens, I think there is no Zen in there. From the point of utilizing our talent fullest, (aiming for H-max.) I have a doubt for us to indulge in such a state. It seems like a black hole to me unless it helps uprooting the deep rooted bad karma. In other words, as delusion may represent a closed circuit of our neuron circuit more related to our conscious brain, this deep samadhi is also a closed circuit perhaps related to our unconscious brain, thus disengaging the frontal lobe and our thinking brain.
(As D.T. Suzuki says on p.101, An Intro. to Zen Buddhism: "Zen does not make Dhyana (or Zazen) an end in itself." So, this seems to support my "enlightenment as a process" argument. It is the same as Dogen's view of being 'proven by the laws of nature.')
* Direct Experience and "Thinking"
When we think in presential state, it is direct experience on thinking. At that time, memories are made available for self-organization to take place - that is creation. As 'need' is given as problem consciousness with memories made available without constraints, thinking is done in such a way that sentences start to appear without human efforts, so to speak. This is thinking like rain falling from the sky. As self-inquiry and clarification is done, and as goading passes through without resistance, we are not blinded, nor constrained in mechanical ways, but to be able to perform the act of nature in thinking activity. In such activities, there is no self left, but only expression of genuine nature, meekness, sincerity, inspiration, love, and compassion.
This is poetry, the art of thinking. Words pop up, pen moves, and sentence appears from somewhere. Things experienced and stored in our memories become alive in front of us. All dead people are now alive, their words are like those spoken just a second ago, helping with each other to create a message that is living. In that moment, we are all together experiencing what seems like a process of tree growing with all nutrients given from all experiences of humans. There is a growth, alive in each moment, chained together to express the movement, the inherent energy of universe. It is the music that is played, words dancing - appearing from somewhere and disappearing to somewhere else. Thoughts are alive at that moment and the limitation of thoughts are only felt after the fact when we study the shells left behind. It then indicates the notion of "enlightenment is a process" in thinking.
* Direct Experience and "Work"
When that happens, such work of thinking is not a work of humans - tainted by ego. It is life jumping around, energy pouring out, creativity itself is being played out. No right or wrong. If so, what does it mean? As I suspect, all the work of humans in business, company operation, services, labor are seen in such light as well. There is nothing dirty, low grade work, unless our thinking is contaminated by past conditioning. Working in an uninspiring job so we may think, whether it is a job of janitor or anything mundane, yet as we may find Zen in rotten cabbage under the moonlight, we may realize that all human work as a process of creation, the enlightening process. Why not?
Because of bias and past conditioning, and missing direct experience, we are disconnected from X or quiet center, hence delusion and suffering arise. Certainly, we need to find the work that is most desirable and right. Yet, whether it is work, think, behave, act, or any activity we engage ourselves in, or getting sensation from such stimuli as touch, smell, see, hear, or taste, 'all' of these input-output process need to be seen from the viewpoint of "direct experience." Then, every activity is a process of direct experience, synthesized together leading the way of our journey. As my son plays with Lego to create something with small pieces, as flowers bloom processing the nutrients from the ground, we may think and work likewise to express the voice from within, and make our contribution to create the universe. Then, why not possible to realize that all human activities are expression of that Buddha nature?
* Direct Experience and "Emotions"
Then, emotion may be seen as reflection on the water(mind), sending a message to act upon. When we are in a controlled setting like Shikan Taza, or the state of "Deep Samadhi," the surface of water may be rather calm. Once in a setting where many interactions take place as in the case of living in a modern day life, however, we need to practice and effectively release wasteful energy. By learning to observe what is happening from the quiet center, we can keep the balance in our mind while enabling the nature to take care of the problem. Here, the act of observation may be seen as direct experience., i.e., everything is directly experiencing the experience. Being with the fact, the process takes its own course, enabling the healing or insight to take place. This then will put us in a position to move along the way further. Such is the work of nature, or I call X.
In summary, direct experience correspond to a natural state, meditative state, presential state, and the state where insight or healing takes place. It is a creative state, a lively state, and most serious, sincere state for all being to be at. We can be at that state with any activity in our life. Because of wisdom and compassion that comes out of such experience, the life may be enriched by freedom, comfort, and equanimity as it is meant to be.
What comes out of this is that:
* I welcome any form of comments. Hope you did not get bored much. Thank you!
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<<Wilbro>> 2807
Kio san, I see you are still telling fish stories. Several images came to mind as I was reading this fish story.
Through the Looking Glass:
On one side of the glass, there is a river. If we impede the river, we find ourselves on the bank. While on the bank, the river rushes by at a frightening speed. We are insecure. If we come to see the impeding, and release it, we find ourselves in the river. It rushes along as before, but we are still in being with it. There is security, and there is excitement. What a ride. Fish jump into boat.
On the other side of the glass, there is a river. If we find ourselves in the river, we are always drowning, for the river is always churning. The more we try to swim to the shore, the stronger the churning gets. We give up, and drown, and find ourselves on the side of the river. The churning goes on, but we are out of it. Sometimes the river just dries up, and all the fish also drown. Kio must take up new hobby.
The Interface:
There is an interface. We face that interface and try to get to it. That moves us away it. Very frustrating. We give up, and face away from the interface. We find that we settle into it. Strange this. If we face it, it pushes us away. If we turn away from it, it lets us in. Is it the same it, or does the turn transform it? Need to go fishing and ponder.
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<<From Me>>
Fish-ing Stories
One of my favorite Koans:
As a monk visited the shop asking the way to the temple, an elderly lady came out and said to go to the right. (which is the wrong direction.)
The monk followed the direction.
Looking at this, she laughed and felt good about making fool of this monk.
As Joshu was asked by many monks having the same complaint, he said, "OK, I will take care of that lady."
So, he went there and asked her the direction to the temple.
"Go to the right." She said.
Joshu went to the right, leaving the lady laughing, "Here's another stupid one getting into the trap."
When Joshu came back to the temple, monks asked how he did.
Joshu said, "I took care of that lady."
Wilbro san, I do not know why I thought of this koan. Maybe, you can tell me. Secret of winning over the wife is not trying to win, is it?
* For more fishing stories, please visit Zenhell or Insearchoftheox club where I posted the 'real' flyfishing stories. (I plan to post my "from Ireland…" series of stories on my home page soon.)
* BTW, my wife and son gave me a large-scale inflatable model of Bozo the clown some years ago. We(they) used to punch and laugh at him at different occasions, saying I am like that Bozo. (Poor Bozo, I like him.) Anyway, is clown crying, or smiling, or neither or both, or what? I still don’t know.
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<<From Me>>
Wilbro san.. 2824
"All in all, I was just metaphoring along and trying to point out that we unless the parts of the metaphor were strictly defined, we could be saying the same thing and arguing over it."
Is this the message? BTW, I could figure out the metaphor more or less but not the intention of fish stories, etc. as well as the implication of metaphor to bring out some new insight. Since I could not figure out these point, I responded with that Joshu and old lady Koan, implying I will go with the flow without being bothered much (if I say so.)and have peace in mind.
I tend to ask "So what?" and that is part of my frontal lobe's job to screen and detect the level of importance. So, perhaps, if you do not mind, I would like to ask again if that was the main message or there was something else I am missing (and perhaps it is difficult to communicate?).
Hope I am making things more complex. This is for clarification purpose, you know.
Thank you.
Kio - Clown with headache
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2830
Kio san, never take anything I say other than at face value. If anything I ever say has a message in it, I am sure it was not intentional. I think I let you in on this secret, but if not, it bears repeating. I have learned how to use words in such a way that it makes them look like they say more than they say. It's all a magic spell I learned from a master magician. I'll sell you the secret for a song ---- and maybe the dance will be added for free.
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<<Sue>> 2808
Pierrot
Before I read the rest of your posts, which I look forward to as usual, just a point about your starting point. I am not making a judgement here or criticising, just raising a sideline point.
From my own experience I have learned that there is a huge difference between self-criticism and the realisation that there are areas of ourselves which require adjustment. The difference between the two is an acceptance of self - now, today, just as I am. The self-criticism that sees wrongness in the self creates a grumbling dissatisfaction that leads to seeking and suffering. The realisation version accepts the self with all it contains (as it is - let it BE) whilst walking in the right direction to include new learning which would work to benefit the behaviour/ personality/ wisdom or whatever. The critical self ends up hating the self - the realising self begins by loving the self.
Dragon
<<Sue>> 2809
Kio san
My thinking on the 'Mu' koan, for what its worth!
I agree with your point 2. as one reading but 'mu' is the sound that cows make. Have you ever met a cow? They are not the brightest of creatures and certainly less intelligent than dogs!
For the 'honoured master' to make the sound of a cow seems such an odd thing to do. I think that he makes a multiplicity of points in doing so that can be read on a multiplicity of levels. Not least of which is the one whereby the 'honoured master' IS the cow - and if that is so then all things are united and indivisible in Buddha nature.
Dragon
<<Sue>> 2810
Kio san
The reality is that as you move up through the intelligence levels of animals there is greater capacity to suffer, it is almost as though it is the capacity to reason that sabotages the 'living in the now' enjoyment of life (samadhi?) I suppose the trick is to learn to live samhadi without the internal injunctions sabotaging the enjoyment. Seems that way to me anyway.
Dragon
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<<From Me>>
Thank you Sue for responses, as always.
While I feel love and let it BE as main theme coming across (as the engine of universe?!), I also see here an issue of dynamic nature of energy movement. Perhaps, multiplicity is a way to characterize it. I thought mind-heart-body system as a first step to integrate. In this dynamic model to-be-further-defined, I felt the principle process functioning at different levels, fractionalized self-Watcher-X, intellect/emotion/behavioral, etc. It is convoluted as our brain neuron structure indicates. Yet, the principle process seems to be the same (this is my last point on this series of the posts).
When I think of the dynamic model, I realize that I look at macro picture and the linkage within - still with the eyes of a management consultant/scientist so that the principle can be deployed, checked and balanced in various dimensions and be able to prove the validity and usefulness. So, my concern is not just in spiritual dimension which itself is a grave concern but, say, management and many other dimensions as we touched briefly before. A question here is, whether or not you see the validity, importance or interest in such direction. (If you are interested to go deeper in this model discussion, perhaps, I might suggest using phil-life-mgmt club or e-mail without disturbing the heavy traffic here -unless there are others interested in such discussion. What I see intuitively now is an application of creative/compassionate process in various dimensions.)
On the other hand, as Wilbro indicates, if this is a fish story, then what? Perhaps, you can decode Wilbro's message for me… Is this the point of nailing down the process to the n-th degree of clarification or to find the application in a dynamic environment with 'crude process' model? Or both, intertwined? (Hope I am communicating this…)
Thank you,
Clown Kio-Pierrot-Bozo also as management consultant-scientist-fisherman
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<<From Sue>>2815
Suzaki san- Clown- Kio- Pierrot- Bozo- management consultant- scientist- fisherman- author- etc etc.
(I am pleased that you are getting to grips with your fractionalised personality ;-). )
Ha, ha, ha, ha! You want ME to translate Wilbro's word juggling? Just at the moment I think you would have more success translating it word for word into Japanese! I think Wilbro has virtual mutiple personality disorder and he is exploring his oppositions. I'm sure there's a meaning in there somewhere (or in a red herring) but I think you might have to use black magic to resurrect Kierkegaard to translate it for you! Of course, you could ask 'The Master of The Vague' for a plain english translation - but Will's plain english is as rare as horse feathers!
I am quite interested to see just how you see all this esoteric stuff applying to the work/ management situation so I'll see you in PLM to explore it further.
I think that the Pierrot laughter/ tears image is very ying/ yang. There is an irony that in the tears is laughter - and in the laughter, tears. Wilbro is the resident expert on irony I'm afraid (I should offer to fix his website for him in exchange for a consultancy exposition ;-\ )
Dragon
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<<Yanavira>>
Hi Suzaki,
Let's make it simple.
Wisdom which arises out of one's own experience, out of personal realization of truth, is the wisdom that one lives and bring about the change in one's life by changing "the very nature of mind". Isn't it the whole idea of direct experience?
However, in worldly matters, experiental wisdom may not always be neccesary or adviseable. It is sufficient to accept the warnings that fire is dangerous or to confirm the fact by deductive reason. I tell that it is foolhardy to insist in plunging myself into fire before I accept it is dangerous and cause burn.
Still, in Dhamma, the wisdom which comes from direct experience is essential that only enable us to realize and understand the nature state wholely.
I say that wisdom which is through listening to others and which is through intellectual investigation are helpful if they inspire and guide us to advance wisdom through direct experience.
But,
if we remain satisfied simply to accept received wisdom without questioning, it becomes a form of bondage.
if we remain content merely to contemplate truth by investigate/understand it intellectually without experience it directly, it becomes a form of bondage, too.
They are just little opinions. Buddha himself told about direct experience in Dhammapada XX.4 (276) & XIX.4 (293).
A Nyanavira. "What is me? I come across the universe looking for my identity and I fail."
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<<Yanavira>>
I built my hut in a zone of human habitation, yet near me there sounds no noise of horse or coach. Would you know how that is possible? A heart that is distant creates a wilderness around it.
I pluck chrysanthemums under the eastern hedge, then gaze long at the distant summer hills. The mountain air is fresh at the dusk of day; the flying birds two by two return. The sun is full of colour.
In these things there lies a deep meaning; yet when I would express it, words suddenly fail me. Only by direct experience, I could express it wholely & perfectly.
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<<From Me>>
FYI, The following note is posted in my home page as a part of "Sketching the Mind Image -- from Ireland" series of scratch notes that appeared in other clubs. As in your note, distant hills, air, birds, and sun seemed to have given me the experience when the words lost meaning.
Sunset
It was a beautiful evening. Clouds were high, and the air was crisp and transparent. There was almost no wind. So I went for a short walk, just around the house. I saw the ocean far away where the ferry goes in and out of Wexford bay. I also looked at our neighbor's farmland where sheep and cattle roam. Then there was a smell of the straw recently cut from the field. On the way back from this little walk, I saw clouds in the high sky breaking up and the sun started shining through.
It reminded me perhaps of a movie scene from the bible when the earth was being created. The sun rays started to penetrate the clouds, spreading its golden lights onto the rolling hills of the farmland. From the fields, trees, farmhouses to the gentle hills of Mt. Leinster; the cone of light spread gradually but forcefully. The light then spread more and reached the church and its graveyard nearby. "What a beautiful contrast" I thought, the sun, rolling hills and the graveyard in the golden color…
Just seconds later, I realized that my whole body was covered by the sun and saw that bright golden sun coming out of the clouds! Wow… It happened so quickly and I felt like the bright sun rays penetrated through my eyes, brain, and body and washed everything inside me. Sort of like cleansing the stuff inside. I was awe struck….without words. It took a while before my mind started to function again. I just felt what is most beautiful and godly - words cannot explain.
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<<Yanavira>>2854
Embossing Direct Experience
This is quite an interesting idea to try. Take a walk and experience everything around you without naming it or attaching any meaning to it at all. Simply experience, as if look at what a tree for the first time, smell the inspiring aroma of what we label as morning green tea... ad infinitum.
Have we replaced the real world with words? Krishnamurti once asked a question, I wonder if we can truly listen to someone? To do without imposing our own beliefs, convictions or classifications upon their words, but rather to really listen with a clear mind?
Nyanavira
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Yani 2760
Like the empty sky it has no boundaries,
Yet it is right in this place,
Ever profound and clear.
When you seek to know it,
You cannot see it.
You cannot take hold of it,
But you cannot lose it.
In not being able to get it, you get it.
When you are silent, it speaks;
When you speak, it is silent.
The great gate is wide open to bestow alms,
And no crowd is blocking the way."
Yana.